In reply to ebonyandivory :
Amen, brother.
In reply to ebonyandivory :
Amen, brother.
yupididit said:I count 4 admitted wagon owners in this thread.
I've owned a few, too.
yupididit said:I count 4 admitted wagon owners in this thread.
I'm a wagon fan. Used to own a Zephyr wagon and a Bobcat wagon if that counts?
The only real problem I have with trucks/SUVs is the way they block people's sight lines at stop lights and stop signs. They pull so far forward that you can't see around them, it may be safe to make this right-on-red, but I can't see. Where as if they had stopped at the white line, I'd be able to creep up a bit, look and if clear, keep traffic moving.
*I realize right-on-red isn't legal everywhere, but it is here unless posted at that particular intersection.
That said, at some point we will probably replace my girlfriend's Honda Fit with something like an Outback. 2 people, 3 dogs and camping equipment in the Fit is cramped to say the least.
yupididit said:I count 4 admitted wagon owners in this thread.
I'm a wagon lover too. I paid $3-4k more than I would have and took a 6-hour train trip to buy a wagon instead of the same car in a sedan that was available locally.
Totally worth it.
Interesting to see some of the opinions on here. I'm surprised at the intolerance shown of other people's opinions or preferences normally found on the web.
It seems like the hatred expressed by some for SUV and CUV are actually issues with the driver behavior that is being projected on the vehicle type.
A lot of the argument against larger vehicles have been based on driver behavior, not vehicle performance/features, but the vehicle gets blamed for the drivers behavior.
Stop blaming the inanimate object and start blaming the person behind the wheel. Just don't stereotype based on vehicle type, otherwise you're no better than the guy yelling hairdresser jokes about miatas or lumping all BMW drivers together as shiny happy people.
Back on topic:
One advantage of a BOF suv over a CUV or minivan is noise when towing, even if it's not a capacity issue
The first time I towed the snowmobile trailer (1200 lbs) I was shocked at how much noise from slop in the receiver/ball mount was transmitted to the passenger compartment. I got out to check several times during the first trip to make sure the noise wasn't something coming apart.
Edited to remove seafood
TBH, I don't hate all SUVs. I mostly hate the generic technoblobs of the modern era. Show me a full-size Bronco and I'll be like, heck yeah. Show me a modern SUV, and it's probably going to be just a boring lump of metal that performs roughly the same functions as a Chevy Corsica but with a higher center of gravity.
Mostly I hate the fact that they're so popular. I could live with a few of them existing, but now they're the dominant vehicle type, and they've practically made regular sedans go away.
I think some of it is also baby seats. Have you seen how gigantic they are nowadays? We put the baby seat in the back of our first-gen TSX, and then had my long-legged wife get comfortable in the front seat. Didn't work comfortably. And the TSX is not a small car. Some of this was due to the baby seat, I'm sure there are smaller ones available, but ours seems pretty average. It would have worked for me, since I have short legs, but I don't like FWD so we got a minivan instead.
But I digress... If a family needs a car to fit 2 baby seats and a stroller, there is a very good chance they're limited to SUV's or Minivans (or minivans that are trying their hardest to be an SUV, like the Acadia). Obviously the stroller isn't a requirement, but hte baby seats are basically until the child has graduated college.
I"m married. My wife likes small SUV's as long as they get good fuel economy. They park easy, she sits taller than in her forte, its easy to carry awkard things, her school supplies are easier to get in and out unlike a trunk and likes the look. When it's time for her to get a new new car, it'll likely be a cute ute. Do I care? Absolutely. I want her to be happy. I have my sporty vehicles. She can have what makes her happy.
I also love body on frame, leaf spring suburbans in rather boxy shapes. No real reason. I just do.
Speaking of SUVs, I miss my Element. The rear doors were that stupid suicide style and the backseats sucked eggs, but it was roomy as all hell, agile, powerful enough 95 percent of the time, and it fit into a civic-sized parking spot. If I have a bitch about SUVs is that they are TOO NICE inside. The utility is more the suburban housewife variety than "Throw the two dogs, the mountain bike and the tools in the back" variety.
In reply to Kreb :
A number of my cycling friends have Elements and love them. One friend is on her second one.
Kreb said:Speaking of SUVs, I miss my Element. The rear doors were that stupid suicide style and the backseats sucked eggs, but it was roomy as all hell, agile, powerful enough 95 percent of the time, and it fit into a civic-sized parking spot. If I have a bitch about SUVs is that they are TOO NICE inside. The utility is more the suburban housewife variety than "Throw the two dogs, the mountain bike and the tools in the back" variety.
Element would have been an awesome vehicle as a PHEV. I spent a lot of time in one for a few summers, really made me appreciate how awesome that vehicle was.
I've come to terms with the fact that the overwhelming majority of drivers choose a car based on fashion trends first and everything else second.
That doesn't mean the car they buy doesn't have practical advantages. But that isn't why they buy it.
yupididit said:I count 4 admitted wagon owners in this thread.
I own two wagons, but also trucks, SUVs, big cars, small cars, etc. I guess I'm both part of the problem and part of the solution lol.
mtn said:Kreb said:Speaking of SUVs, I miss my Element. The rear doors were that stupid suicide style and the backseats sucked eggs, but it was roomy as all hell, agile, powerful enough 95 percent of the time, and it fit into a civic-sized parking spot. If I have a bitch about SUVs is that they are TOO NICE inside. The utility is more the suburban housewife variety than "Throw the two dogs, the mountain bike and the tools in the back" variety.
Element would have been an awesome vehicle as a PHEV. I spent a lot of time in one for a few summers, really made me appreciate how awesome that vehicle was.
Yeah, but..... a key to the Element's goodness was it's low floor and high interior volume. throw in 8 inches of batteries and the utility's really going to take a hit.
Cotton said:I own two wagons, but also trucks, SUVs, big cars, small cars, etc. I guess I'm both part of the problem and part of the solution lol.
Same here. Love wagons, owned a wagon always since 80s. Have tsx wagon in fleet now
Saw Mazdaduece Seth talk about FJ. Bought a Trail Teams FJC last year, now go to sand dunes and pull ATV with it
guess I am problem and solution too
my wife is anti suv unlike most hipster women. She had a NC2 PRHT for 8 years. The. Upgraded to a V8 convertible. No minivans or suv love from her
Kreb said:mtn said:Kreb said:Speaking of SUVs, I miss my Element. The rear doors were that stupid suicide style and the backseats sucked eggs, but it was roomy as all hell, agile, powerful enough 95 percent of the time, and it fit into a civic-sized parking spot. If I have a bitch about SUVs is that they are TOO NICE inside. The utility is more the suburban housewife variety than "Throw the two dogs, the mountain bike and the tools in the back" variety.
Element would have been an awesome vehicle as a PHEV. I spent a lot of time in one for a few summers, really made me appreciate how awesome that vehicle was.
Yeah, but..... a key to the Element's goodness was it's low floor and high interior volume. throw in 8 inches of batteries and the utility's really going to take a hit.
Some of that would go into the 15.9 gallon gas tank. And they've gotten much better with ev batteries, not all of them are like the fusion energi anymore.
With women anyway, I saw it early on. In the late ‘70’s my 30 something mother would make whatever excuse she could come up with to take dad’s snow plow wagon (‘77 Wagoneer) over her ‘78 Buick Regal. I didn’t understand it. Dad didn’t understand it. He had purchased that Buick for her. SUVs were not that common then. None of the other female school teachers drove them. Mom said she felt safer in the Jeep. And best of all, she said, “..I can really see out of it. And besides, it drives just like the Buick...”
I spotted a trend in the early stages.
Cooter said:Daylan C said:yupididit said:Nor do I generalize the entire wagon driving population based on one person and their stupid reason.
There's a wagon driving population to generalize in 2019?
Hi there.
My daily. I'm about a month short of ten years of ownership. It's still reliable, still enjoy driving it.
I don't normally autocross it, but the Miata had a dead battery that day.
If you live in a town like Westport, CT you have an SUV because everyone else does. The bigger the better; your second MomCar is a ludicrously colored lifted Jeep with 44s whose only off roading is to drive up a curb now and then. 
God help you if you're driving a 914, maybe you can slide under!
In addition to height and seating position, I wonder if part of the initial appeal that led to popularity is being able to see the hood from the drivers seat?
The hood isn't visible from the driver seat in my Elantra or the Sedona. I suspect many cars and all minivans are that way, while many SUV/CUV hoods can probably be seen from the driver seat.
The ability to see where the hood may increase driver confidence, but may also contribute to more aggressive when merging, etc. since they have a better idea where the corners of the vehicle are in addition to the higher POV.
The SUV visibility argument is the result too many SUVs. It's like one row standing in a stadium. Now everyone has to stand.
My daily driver is a crew cab 4x4 but I also want to build a Yaris hatchback to handle (and be my commuter).
I guess I'll be a bully AND a victim depending on what I take to work.
yupididit said:Daylan C said:yupididit said:Nor do I generalize the entire wagon driving population based on one person and their stupid reason.
There's a wagon driving population to generalize in 2019?
Yes, all 13 of them frequent GRM.
Yes I do.
I was going to write up a review of our 2019 Mazda CX-9, but this is easier. Owned and driven for one year this month.
Overall impression: Very positive. Impressive drivetrain. Gobs of torque. Actually feels fast and gets ~27 mpg.
Fact: Families with kids arguably NEED something bigger than a wagon to carry passengers and associated stuff. We tried the wagon thing, it's why I have such a negative opinion of Subaru. 
But even though the Volvo 940 Turbo wagon was infinitely better than the Outback, it still just wasn't big enough. And loading kids in a low vehicle is much harder than loading kids into a minivan. Honestly, the minivan is the best solution for families with young kids, but there is that stigma. I don't care, but the kids were getting old enough to feel that they didn't want to be seen in a minivan. Matching the MPV's handling prowess was not an easy task, but the CX-9 has it covered.
I have a truck, so tow ratings and 4' x 8' carrying capacity was not a factor.
So, positive characteristics:
1) BIG. You don't feel like a mouse in a buffalo stampede.
2) BIG. Room for 7 passengers and some luggage.
3) BIG. You're likely to fare better in a crash with a vehicle that doesn't significantly outweigh you.
4) Commanding view of the road. I first noticed this in my truck, but also applies to the CX-9. If you're down in a sedan on a rain-covered busy interstate, you can't see E36 M3 for the mist that gets airborne. Much better visibility in a truck or SUV.
5) Looks good for a vehicle of its size. Somewhat more stylish than a minivan.
Really, that's about it. I'd probably have considered a new quad-cab full-sized truck or a truck-based SUV if they didn't have such an appetite for gas.
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