Talk me out of / in to a side business (Miata content)

get your feet wet by selling small stuff first , like wood shift knobs designed like the Porsche race car ones , 

steal ideas from everyone and adapt them to Miatas ,  

See if you get any traction and then do another project , 

Buy the Japanese Miata magazines ( if there are any)  , all the back issues you can find , 

How is the MAZDA company as far as using the Mazda and Miata logos ?

Its a side gig ,  do it and learn from your mistakes , its just one step , 

Have fun with it and make silly Tshirts in Japanese !

NOHOME said:

If this is just to be a side business, the Miata specialized garage/shop based business is good pocket $$$. Everybody hates paying their mechanic's overhead, especially if its a dealer. Miatas are simple and repetition makes for efficiency. If you can establish yourself as the guy who speaks fluent Miata and can leverage low overhead and cash sales to undercut the industry, people will find you.

No desire to become the local mechanic, or build other people's cars. 

The big issue I see for using the Miata is that everyone has a different idea as to what their ultimate version is.  And there are plenty of options in creating your ideal available without breaking the bank.  Miatas will never be a high end lust after brand as they never were new and they simply made too many.  I think also, they are simply too small.  Sprites and Spitfires have their limits, and so will Miatas.  But there will always be some sort of market for them.  If you can build them at a somewhat reasonable cost, I think you can move them, but I really think original examples is where the money lies in the future.

FYI, Singer does not buy the cars. They are a restoration shop. Customers find a car and send it to them for the work.

Of course there are many ideas of what the ultimate version of an aircooled 911 are. Just look at the differences between Magnus Walker and Singer and RWB. Hasn't prevented those three companies from being wildly successful. The trick is not to build what everyone thinks the perfect 911 or Miata is, the trick is to build a very cohesive car and execute it perfectly.

Mazda is protective of the trademark.

BradLTL said:

To be clear, this would only be a side hustle (at best), and really it is only hypothetical.  I'm not quitting my day job or mortgaging my house to fund it.

I think part of the value proposition would be the quality of the end product.  I wouldn't want it to be just aftermarket bolt ons.  Being handcrafted, being unique is part of the story and character of the car.  It would have to be as much about the brand as the car.  

Well then, my answer is no. I wouldn't buy it. 
 

A 30 year old Miata with a pretty interior is still a 30 year old Miata. 

I don't think you were ever the target market, though.

I think over-spending to reinforce your feeling of superiority is part of the appeal of Porsche ownership... 

But Miata ownership is a lot more about bang for bucks... With owners that wrench on their own cars. 

Keith Tanner said:

I don't think you were ever the target market, though.

I agree.  I'm not.  But I don't think Miata owners as a group are either. 
 

My wife loves homeschooling. She has made several attempts to make a business selling educational products to homeschoolers.  As much as she loves doing it, I still had to be honest with her. Homeschoolers are cheapasses. They all know how to find stuff for free, and they are not gonna buy your stuff.  That's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true. Her business has never made any money. 
 

I see this idea the same way. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'll add something to that...

I think if the product was offered in kit form, that many of YOUR customers would be buyers. 
 

But as a business trying to improve the entire Miata experience- power, handling, aesthetics?... well, he's gonna have to compete with Flyin Miata.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I agree. The price point of a NA (even originally) doesn't lend itself to collectors or purest restoration types.  That's the biggest challenge with the concept in my opinion.

MAYBE something different and a little newer, like an MR2 Spyder. Perhaps. 
 

I don't see it with the Miata. 

I tend to think of the Miata as the open-source sports car.  Everything is cheap, common, easily available, every modification in the world is well documented, etc.  All of this is great unless you're trying to make a business out of it.  The worst thing about Miatas from a business standpoint is that Miata owners are cheap, because they have the luxury of being cheap.  I've sold a hundred Miata parts online and it always amazes me how people will fight to the death to get a $5 discount on a $50 part.  Seems like this does not bode well for bespoke, custom Miata builds which would be highly subject to individual tastes and preferences.  Honestly you could probably do better by flipping completely clean, unmodified NA cars since most of the ones available on the market have undergone exactly what you're proposing and nobody wants to pay a premium for it.  Heck, buy a bunch of clean automatic cars and do nothing but swap 5 speeds into them, I think that would be a pretty good ROI.

I think the Miata is really the wrong answer here for once.

The pool is DEEP on people trying to fulfill the ultimate miata experience from the show guys like Rev9 for retail of JDM goodness to the custom one off small category guys like Revlimiter for gauges and badges and LRB for custom metal panels. Then you have the performance guys like Flyin Miata and SuperMiata. Heck even Mazda has gotten back in to the game with the restoration services. If you wanted to install and some of these items then there would be more of a market there. Otherwise you better have a darn good product to make any head ways. 

Is there a place for 1 off smaller guys? Absolutely. I have almost $2K in orders into a custom local fabricator for trail armor for my Xterra and will probably place another $2K before I'm done. The Xterra is a less common platform for the aftermarket so there is a lot of room for guys like Hefty Fabworks to play. 

Years ago the cool thing was to have the European headlights ,  Euro tailight colors and maybe the side markers.....and that stuff was hard to find before Ebay etc , 

But now you have a worldwide market to sell to ,  which also brings other sellers who will grab your sales with lower prices ,  

I say find some things and try it  , you are paying for your education , you may find other things to sell later that are not Miata , at least you have some knowledge of what to do and not do.....

The Miata market IS a tough one, because they expect Porsche quality at Honda prices. Some of that is our doing. Anyhow...

Here's something to consider. The first few FM V8 conversions were done for long-time Miata owners. We had a few that had owned the car for decades and were having us take the final step.

But then it changed. The customer became someone who wasn't a Miata owner, but someone who wanted the unique set of attributes an FM-built V8 Miata offers. They started buying cars specifically for the conversion and shipping them to us sight unseen. In at least one case, the customer had never even sat in one. They often bought Mazdaspeeds because 1) we told them it was a good platform and 2) they liked the look of the final result - which drove the Miata nerds crazy.  When we advertised in Hemmings Sports & Exotics, not a single person who contacted us wanted to design their ideal Miata and have a car built. They just wanted to know what colors we had in stock.

Those are your customers for this car. Not people who have owned a Miata for 20 years and want the ultimate incarnation, but someone who's attracted by the combination of style, handling and experience that this car offers.

You're not competing with Flyin' Miata despite my best efforts to convince the powers that be this would be a good direction for expansion. You're not competing with Supermiata or anyone else. This car doesn't exist yet. You may compete with a factory-restored NA, but if you can offer something bespoke, something unique you'll have customers. They won't be posting to Miata forums or GRM. But you'll have to commit and do it properly. A few aftermarket parts banged together in the evening, you'll be lucky to get your parts cost back. It has to be visibly the end result of obsession and a willingness to do what is necessary to fulfill the vision.

I've actually had this conversation with the guys from Singer :)

The Toyota MR2 Spyder isn't iconic. It's just a funny little pokemon that never made an impression in the market outside autocross.  The NA Miata is an icon. That's why you could do this with an NA Miata but not an NB or NC. You can buy a similar classic Mini, MGB, Jaguar E Type, American 4x4 or  Series Land Rover that has been gone over and updated with (hopefully) tasteful upgrades and a clear vision.

Quality sells, if you can build cars that have a lot of fine details on them that make them stand out then you can probably sell them all day long.

I also think we may be the wrong group to ask as we are notorious cheap asses.

Keith Tanner said:It has to be visibly the end result of obsession and a willingness to do what is necessary to fulfill the vision.

Welcome to building a brand. Now do the money math on this and see if it is a side-gig kind of effort. I am going to guess not.

Keith Tanner said:

FYI, Singer does not buy the cars. They are a restoration shop. Customers find a car and send it to them for the work.

Of course there are many ideas of what the ultimate version of an aircooled 911 are. Just look at the differences between Magnus Walker and Singer and RWB. Hasn't prevented those three companies from being wildly successful. The trick is not to build what everyone thinks the perfect 911 or Miata is, the trick is to build a very cohesive car and execute it perfectly.

Mazda is protective of the trademark.

The fact that they all started as restoration shops is the key thing here.  When you become that familiar with a car, then you start to really see the resto-mod capabilities.  And that's what these cars are- they are not restorations, and they are not modern cars- they are someone's interpretation of what the car should be.

Miata's are not fodder for restorations, mostly because you can always find a good enough example of the car you want to make on your own.  I'm sure Miatas are restored, but the demand isn't anything like P cars or even early 70's Alfas which are pretty common restoration cars, now.

Then there's part 2- the restomod potential.  How much would it cost in terms of powertrains and time to put an engine in that people would pay top dollar for?  One engine that would be really cool would be the 3.0l V6.  Engines are pretty common, but RWD transmissions are not.

And I do think there's space between the I4 Miatas and the V8 Miatas.

Singer didn't start as a restoration shop, that's what they proclaim strongly to avoid being viewed as a manufacturer.  The cars they are "restoring" are not the desirable ones, really. They just happen to be aircooled and can be backdated visually.

Miatas are certainly being restored. We've seen the market shifting, and Mazda themselves have put some parts back into production. Definitely not the same level of demand as for vintage Italians, but that doesn't mean it's not happening. 

If you're calling out Singer as your target, restomod is the idea. Choosing the engine is a bit of a challenge. It can't be some random Honda swap, it has to be part of the story. Singer started by building a monster version of the Porsche engine, then went even further with that crazy Williams powerplant. It's worth noting that when they came out with the high-dollar 4.0, almost every existing order switched over to it. There are no Singers being built to the "base" spec. Anyhow, that's why I was considering a 2.0 MZR, because it's in the family and you can buy an off-the-shelf 200 hp version with throttle bodies from the UK. Trying to build the BP to that level is...challenging.

BradLTL said:

I'm a Porsche guy, have been for as long as I can remember. I've hit the phase where the older cars are more appealing than the new ones.  I guess it is a bit like the IPA beer phase. My favorite Porsches these days are Singers and Magnus Walkers modified early 911s.  On that note I was watching the Urban Outlaw movie:

(embed removed, link below)

So, I started shopping. Those early 911s are so expensive.  So expensive.  Even the 912s are crazy.

All that said, listening to Magnus talk about the character of the car and what interests him in them just made me want that more.  

I started thinking about what car would have similar raw focus of design, had reverence in car culture and could be a stand in for those of us who don't have early 911 money.  The answer, at least I think is The Answer.

What if you took a NA and modified it to be a more raw/pure, retro roadster with a bit of style.  A car that doesn't care about your lap time, but instead tries to give you joy when driving it anywhere.  Spend time on making the car an experience.  Lose the 90s gauges, the rubbery interior bits. Add custom door cards and leather pulls; wood + chrome shifter, bucket seats (vintage race style), retro gauge cluster... really it would end up being a very expensive cheap car.  Performance mods would be subtle, with the power mods focused on sound and improved delivery of torque. The suspension would be tuned for spirited street driving, not as stuff as you'd want for a track day but great for a drive in the hills.

Would you buy one?

If I were to undertake a renovation of our 244,000+ mile NA I have often thought the direction you describe is one I would take.  I don't think I would pay someone to do it for me.  Price point for you to make a profit would likely drive me out of the market.  But I'm thrifty.

Good test...  Build what you describe and see if someone offers to buy it at a good price.  If not you'll have a really nice NA.

Good luck with the project.

If you're doing these builds for people that just want a cool, nice, fun car and aren't bleeding edge performance junkies, you're going to want to stick with the stock ECU and Mazda drivetrain choices.  That way they could take it to any old Japanese car mechanic when repairs are needed.  And if Miatas are headed towards "iconic" status (which is debatable), aren't people going to want it built with Miata parts?  Personally I think an LFX or LS Miata would be great, but it's hard to believe that collector types are going to want a modern GM motor in their classic Japanese car.

Personally I think there's a market for turnkey street car builds with the following specs:

- squeaky clean NA6 chassis, the lightest of all of them.  Find automatics or short-nose crank cars to get them cheap on the front end.  Full paint and interior resto.

- 1.8L VVT swap on stock ECU with VVTuner.  Keep A/C and power steering if present.

- Some kind of valved exhaust with mild/wild modes?

- 4.3 Torsen rear end

- FM frame rails

- Koni or Bilstein shocks with medium-soft springs and coilover sleeves, dropped maybe 1" from stock height.

- 15" Panalite-style wheels in the original OEM silver color for better tire choices

- Options: Hard Dog 4pt roll bar, nice stealth audio system

People have been building Miatas this way for ages.  I did it myself as a matter of fact.  IMO this type of build stays true to the Miata form while adding some extra performance and civility.  The problem is that this sort of money gets you into S2000, Boxster and Cayman territory.

Going by what Keith and others here have said, would not the NC be the ultimate to build then?  Do people really want a NA for this, or just a cool, but different sports car that can be made into a customized car to show to their friends.  The NC would give a nicer experience and appeal to a broader crowd, where the NA would appeal to the diehard or true Miata person.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

If you're doing these builds for people that just want a cool, nice, fun car and aren't bleeding edge performance junkies, you're going to want to stick with the stock ECU and Mazda drivetrain choices.  That way they could take it to any old Japanese car mechanic when repairs are needed.  And if Miatas are headed towards "iconic" status (which is debatable), aren't people going to want it built with Miata parts?  Personally I think an LFX or LS Miata would be great, but it's hard to believe that collector types are going to want a modern GM motor in their classic Japanese car.

Personally I think there's a market for turnkey street car builds with the following specs:

- squeaky clean NA6 chassis, the lightest of all of them.  Find automatics or short-nose crank cars to get them cheap on the front end.  Full paint and interior resto.

- 1.8L VVT swap on stock ECU with VVTuner.  Keep A/C and power steering if present.

- Some kind of valved exhaust with mild/wild modes?

- 4.3 Torsen rear end

- FM frame rails

- Koni or Bilstein shocks with medium-soft springs and coilover sleeves, dropped maybe 1" from stock height.

- 15" Panalite-style wheels in the original OEM silver color for better tire choices

- Options: Hard Dog 4pt roll bar, nice stealth audio system

 

People have been building Miatas this way for ages.  I did it myself as a matter of fact.  IMO this type of build stays true to the Miata form while adding some extra performance and civility.  The problem is that this sort of money gets you into S2000, Boxster and Cayman territory.

That's what you can't build. You don't bolt on some frame rails, you strip the body down and seam-weld it. You don't buy a set of Bilsteins and slide some coilover sleeves over top, you engineer a coilover setup that offers maximum travel and compliance - possibly re-engineering the rear suspension to give more travel than could possibly be provided by bolt-ons. You don't stick in a 140 hp junkyard VVT engine, you build a beautiful high compression unit with razor-sharp response and loads of character. It doesn't matter if your local garage can't figure out the ECU, your customers will come to you for service. Possibly to the point of shipping you the car. Seriously.

I mean, you could sell a car like this. But you'd be lucky to cover your parts cost, never mind your labor. With "full paint and interior resto", you may not even get that. That's because your competition is people building their own. You need to sidestep that competition, to build something that nobody else can.

Would the NC be the best platform? Probably not, it doesn't have the romance, the iconic aspect. You have to sell a dream here.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

You get it.  

I've been thinking about this for at least five years ;) I have also been involved in six-figure Miata builds.