Talk me out of R Compound tires

So I've been tracking my E28 for 4 years now and looking forward to season 5 soon. I've been running Hankook RS-4 since I started and have absolutely nothing but praise for them, the first set lasted two years (first couple of track days before coilovers killed the outside of those tires) and my second set has given me another two years of track days plus two seasons of autocross driving to events on them. That set still has some life left in them but they are past their prime, perfect for fun nights at Toronto Motorsports Park where I don't feel like I'm wasting fresh tires.

I'm ready for more though, ideally more grip, tire life and less expensive (dreaming of course). So that means stepping up to a "better" 200 tw tire or going to R-compound. I've had a ride along in an eigth gen Civic Si on Hoosier R7's and it left an impression with me, I like grip and I like corner speed, Hoosiers are not in the budget though. I'm a bit limited though with my wheels, I have two sets (plus a spare) of 16 x 8 wheels for the car, there is decent selection of tires but some choices are not available (anything from Nitto and the new Falken RT660 mainly). I'd love to go to 17" wheels at some point but that is a bit tough as most are 3 series offsets (I could run these but they would need  a 35 mm spacer) so I'm not there yet.

I want a tire that will be consistent over 20 - 30 minutes on track, I want it to perform reasonably well at autocross but doesn't need to be fast for my first runs. Driving on them to an event is easy but not a requirement. I'd like to get at least a season out of them (6 autocrosses with 5-8 runs each, 2 weekends at Mosport ~4 hours on track each and 2 nights at TMP ~ 2 hours on track each). I'm in Canada so some tires are easy to get (anything PMCtire carries as an example) and others not so much, prices are in CAD below. I have access to mounting and balancing so flipping tires around to extend life is not an issue.

The car is approximately 3000 lbs, has around 200 hp with a suspension and brake setup for the track. I have the stock interior for the car along with a pretty set of BBS RS with Indy 500's for when I want a car to cruise around on the street or go to car shows (rare). I also have a pair of FIA certified fixed back buckets, 6 point FIA harnesses and a bolt in (to 3/16" steel welded in base plates) 4 point roll-bar along with a HANS to go with it for the track. The car is faster than it should be on track or at an autocross but I'd like more.

The main contenders:

225/50R16 Hankook RS-4 $179/tire last time I bought in 2019

Pros - lasts forever, consistent on track, works decently at autocross, easily handles the drives to/from events, ok in the wet, "the jack of all trades that won't break the bank" 

Cons - same old, same old. I want to go faster! I want to finish higher at our autocross events

225/50R16 Bridgestone RE-71R $187/tire

Pros- autocross weapon, great in the wet, reset my fast laps

Cons - one lap wonders? will they last 20 minutes being pushed hard on track? Can I drive them 30 minutes to an autocross? Can I drive them 1 hour plus to the track with wasting them on the street?

225/45R16 Nankang AR-1 $194/tire (what I am leaning towards)

Pros - faster on track, faster at autocross (bumps me up a class but my car is outclassed everywhere anyway, not a problem), bang for the buck

Cons - mixed reviews, will they make it through my theoretical season above? likely need to change tires at events, need rain tires (which I would drive to events on)

Other options

245/45R16 Toyo R888R $220/tire

Pros - faster than an RS-4, these tires get a pass in our local Time attack series to run with the 200 tw tires (Sponsor bs) that I would like to try

Cons - very mixed reviews

Quesitons - Anyone have experience with these? How do they hold up? Am I wasting them driving them on the street?

225/50/R16 Toyo RR $269/tire

Pros - fast on track, if I'm already changing tires at the event why not go all the way with a tire like this?

Cons - can't drive on the street, expensive, only for a 100% dry track

Questions - How do these hold up on track? If I were lapping at AR-1 speeds would these last longer? Same thing but at RS-4 speeds?

I can also get the Yokohoma A052's or Pirreli P Zer Trofeo R in sizes that work, both sound like lots of fun but that fun would be short lived.

TL:DR I've always ran RS-4's on track/autocross and they are great but I want some more speed, what should I do?

I run my car or Hoosiers but I've driven some other peoples cars on 200tw and this is my take; 

R-comps will get you lap times but depending on their performance you may not like the cars behavior on the limit. 

If the lap time number matters to you that much just by the Hoosiers (skip a weekend to free up the cash if you have to)

Do you have any sort of telemetry in the car? If not a basic system will be cheaper than sticky tires and you'll get more out of it. 

I've had good luck with the RE-71R on a V8 ND Miata. I did manage to heat-cycle one set out when there was still rubber left, but that poor car gets abused. 

My own track V8 Miata runs RRs because it appreciates the grip level. They have lasted quite well for what they are and they seem to take less careful management than Hoosiers.

When looking at reviews of the R888R, note that the R-suffix variant is different than the old R888. I like the R888R a lot more, it's like a grown-up RA1.

I don't know if this is a reasonable line to pursue but would going down to 15's help? The first hurdle is maybe they don't fit over your track brake setup. The reasons I ask is they'll likely be 1. lighter than the 16s (faster(?)) 2. slightly less expensive tires (you could buy a *better* tire and stay in budget) 3. more tire options? 

Again - it may make 0 sense whatsoever but it's what came to mind. We ran the Hankooks on the Miata this year and they were very predictable. I run Hoosier Street TDS on the E21 when it's dry and BFG Sport Comp-2s in the wet. Neither of which fit what you're asking about. I will say, however, that my well used Hoosiers still feel like they keep up with the Hankooks we run on the Miata for the most part. 

Oh - another suggestion. I can't remember the guy's name off the top of my head but I bought the Hoosiers lightly used of this guy who sells mostly used race tires. Maybe try an R compound at a discount to see if you think it's worth the investment over 200tw. 

I really liked the RE-71s I ran on my 944 turbo for track days. About the same weight as your car, another 75hp, and they had no problem lasting an entire 20-30 minute track session when shaved. That said, I am not an aggressive or even particularly fast driver so your trackage may vary.

They're pretty progressive and communicate well, unlike some other R compound tires.

I drove mine on the street sometimes. Wouldn't want to drive them in heavy weather. Wear was ok, the much more likely risk is damage from road-junk - no patching!

AxeHealey said:

Oh - another suggestion. I can't remember the guy's name off the top of my head but I bought the Hoosiers lightly used of this guy who sells mostly used race tires. Maybe try an R compound at a discount to see if you think it's worth the investment over 200tw. 

https://www.facebook.com/JohnBergetTire is where all the guys around here get their pre-loved Hoosiers.

I'd sooner get Toyo RR than Hoosiers.  The RRs offer consistent performance over many more heat cycles than the Hoosiers.  They are pretty fun and easy to drive as well.

The Hankooks are nice but I can understand wanting higher levels of grip.  I know a lot of track day guys using the Nitto NT05 or NT01 instead of slicks.  Maybe consider those or something with similar grip levels.  I've heard good things about the Nankangs as well though.

NT-01 is a sweetheart. Not the fastest tire out there, but lasts forever (relatively speaking) and is friendly. Perfect Miata track day tire.

As some one that loves grip I remember fondly my first set of R comps.  It was like a new drug.  HOWEVER.  It soon became apparent that it was putting loads on other things in the suspension that had not been there before AND it let me use more of the brakes allot more so there was more heat and more pad and rotor ware.  Not this this is a bad thing just something to be aware of. Another analogy that I liked is that going to R comps was like putting a 30 amp fuse in where a 20 amp one use to be.

Thanks for the suggestions so far!

Data acquisition - I've got Harry's and a couple of other lap timers, nothing beyond that and I realize it is something I am lacking. I spend a few hours a week on iRacing which you can export your telemetry from and use software by AIM etc to evaluate your driving. I have not set that up yet but I should dive into that deeper and learn about it in an affordable way like that.

New Hoosier 225/50R16 R7 are $389 CAD/tire, that is just way too much for me. Used is definitely something I am open to and a quick look at John Berget Tire shows some 16's available. Right now I think shipping into Canada will kill that idea, once the border opens I can look at getting them dropped in Buffalo and picking them up myself there but that will be a 2022 thing. 

I'm pretty sure 15's will clear my brakes but finding a wheel larger than 15 x 7 with a BMW bolt pattern will be tough, anything wider I think I would need adapters which I am not a big fan of for track. The common 15 sizes also run about an inch shorter in diameter, not a deal killer at all but not ideal. I think for my sizing going to a 17 x 8-9 will be best as I can keep sizing right for the car. Smaller does tend to be less expensive though which I do like.

I've been spoiled by the costs of the 16's, tire availability isn't as good as 15 or 17 but the wheels I run have cost me an average of $42 for the 9 I have and tire are cheaper than 17s. E38 7 series used 16 x 8 basket weaves (made by BBS or Fundo) as their base wheels, E30 guys need 4 x 100 for the most part so demand is very low for them.

Maybe I push my current tires through another season and go up to 17's next year? Who thinks these would look good on a Red Euro E28? I'd need around a 25 mm spacer to run them and maybe a bit of a fender roll.

If I go to 17's the NT-01 will be at the top of the list from everything I've read. It seems to strike the balance I am looking for.

+1 on John Berget I used him for years it was a great way to split the difference between cost and speed.

I abuse the Hoosiers mightily; They will do 2 full race weekends before they fall off, they will not do a third weekend hence my abusing them. I use Hoosier TD-Rs (replacement for the street TDs), I have raced with them in the rain, not pretty.

After reading all the replies I'm inclined to say put on the stickiest tire in your budget and see if it's worth it to you.  If it's not go back to what you were running.   

dean1484 said:

Another analogy that I liked is that going to R comps was like putting a 30 amp fuse in where a 20 amp one use to be.

As an electrician I can appreciate that!

Are you saying my 36 year old family sedan that originally came equipped with 195/70R14 (or 200/60 R390) may not be up to the task? lol. It's something to consider for sure, I think the oiling system of the M30 may be the first thing that comes up short which has me also thinking about an accusump. The price to pay for not being another Miata/BRZ/M3 etc. on track.

In reply to adam525i (Forum Supporter) :

Will any of the Chevy wheels in the same pattern match your offset?  Maybe you can find a 15 inch Chevy wheel?

Keith Tanner said:

NT-01 is a sweetheart. Not the fastest tire out there, but lasts forever (relatively speaking) and is friendly. Perfect Miata track day tire.

+1.  NT01s are the perfect track day tire, long lasting, not particularly affected by heat cycles, predictable grip, and resistant to chunking.

RRs are the next step up in grip, but they have more dropoff due to age and will likely heat cycle out before they cord.  20-30% more money per hour of track time on my car.

To me Hoosiers make no sense unless you're racing in a class that allows them, in which case they become effectively mandatory.  The useful life is basically 1 day, so even if they weren't more expensive per tire, you're looking at vastly increased running costs -- minimum three times that of the RR.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

0.65 mm means a lot to the Germans that engineered this car! Get out of here before you offend them even more. /s

That's an interesting thought and something I hadn't considered. It's worth looking into 17" options as well and seeing what is available, as long as they aren't chrome.

dean1484 said:

As some one that loves grip I remember fondly my first set of R comps.  It was like a new drug.  HOWEVER.  It soon became apparent that it was putting loads on other things in the suspension that had not been there before AND it let me use more of the brakes allot more so there was more heat and more pad and rotor ware.  Not this this is a bad thing just something to be aware of. Another analogy that I liked is that going to R comps was like putting a 30 amp fuse in where a 20 amp one use to be.

I was going to post the same thing. Another factor is that stickier tires really want heavier springs; if you're on a stock suspension you may find that you're riding on the bump stops through turns on R comps, which may not actually be faster and feels bad.  I race SM in SCCA, so I know Hoosiers. The grip falls off pretty dramatically after 10-12 heat cycles, at which point they're really no faster than 200tw tires. The RR's are reportedly better, but you're still lucky to get 20 heat cycles out of them. I agree with the recommendation for NT-01's, great tire for your needs. 

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

The key to Hoosiers is properly scrubbing them in The vintage TD-Rs I use will do 14 heat cycles which in my case equates to two vintage race weekends plus a track day before they really fall off. I run them for three more track days after that, at that point they dropped of a couple of seconds.  Additionally the are lighter and shorter (lower gearing) then other brands of tires. 

Back on topic; for a track day only car, I'd be inclined to stick with a 200tw tire. The stickier tires don't necessarily make the day more fun. I actually find the harder tires to be more fun. One of my favorite tires is Avon ACB9s they have a ton of sidewall wind up and so you can hang them way out........which is really fun in old car.

I certainly have been talked out of R compound tires.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Those 195/70R14 made these cars roll and the H&R Sport springs still weren't even close to supporting the RS-4's. I think the setup now is pretty good for the Hankooks but a jump to an RR might require more spring to support them.

In reply to Tom1200 (Forum Supporter) :

There's a part of me that would like to try a set of cheap tires and see if I can get the car 4 wheel drifting around the track, Mosport isn't the place to try that but TMP would be fine. Maybe a set of Maxtrek Maximus M1 for $67/tire is the answer.

I think it will likely come down to the AR-1's and see how it goes or hold off for another year and go with a set of 17" NT-01's on new (or used) wheels. Down the road I could see a set of Continental ECS on one set of wheels to drive to events and run in the rain along with another set setup with something more aggressive to swap on for dry running. Once the border opens I really want to venture out to some of the great tracks within an 8 hour drive or so from me (Gratton, Mid-Ohio, Pitt race etc.) and eventually make my way down to VIR and Road Atlanta.

In reply to adam525i (Forum Supporter) :

C'mon if Donohue can drift a Can-Am car around Mosport, surely you can do that in your C-dan.

I've actually contemplated going to the AR-1s now that my F500 is my primary vintage race car.

adam525i (Forum Supporter) said:

245/45R16 Toyo R888R $220/tire

Pros - faster than an RS-4, these tires get a pass in our local Time attack series to run with the 200 tw tires (Sponsor bs) that I would like to try

Cons - very mixed reviews

Quesitons - Anyone have experience with these? How do they hold up? Am I wasting them driving them on the street?

I have these in 245 series on my RX8.  I'm 2 trackdays in, and they're holding up quite well.

I also use them on the street between events for my whopping 7km commute and once had to drive 12 hours to Germany and back with them installed (to include about 5 hours of 185kph + down the deregulated sections of the autobahn).  This being my first experience with R-comps, I can say the following:

There is absolutely no comparison between these and the 340TW BFG's/Continentals I'm used to running previously.  These tires GRIP like it's their job (well, because it is).  Exceeding the limits of traction is smooth and generally controllable.  With these on my car, and no other mods, I've been in the top 4 times for my run group at both events (I'm behind a Focus RS, Porsche GT3, and a Lotus 7 replica that I routinely trade places with).  I like the feedback they provide, and I'm very impressed with them so far.  Wear has not been an issue at all so far.

They're a bit noisy on the street, if I'm honest.  Just a little more so than the BFG G-force sports I used to run on my RX7 so maybe not a huge issue.  At any rate, I'm planning on killing them this year with a pretty aggressive trackday schedule and when I do I plan to buy another set.

What Dean and Shiney said holds true though, I'm practically dragging my mirrors in the turns.  There are embarrassingly long sections of the track between turns where I find my car is still transitioning and after the first event I changed my front pad compound to the StopTech Sports (RBF600 brake fluid).  I figured out pretty quick that while my RX8 had exactly ZERO grunts to pass traffic, I could stomp pretty hard on the woah pedal after the long straight to make up for things.  

Good times.

Keith Tanner said:

AxeHealey said:

Oh - another suggestion. I can't remember the guy's name off the top of my head but I bought the Hoosiers lightly used of this guy who sells mostly used race tires. Maybe try an R compound at a discount to see if you think it's worth the investment over 200tw. 

https://www.facebook.com/JohnBergetTire is where all the guys around here get their pre-loved Hoosiers.

Yeah, that's the guy. I suppose that's now a +3 for him. Shipping within the states was remarkably fast but being across the border right now will likely be an issue. 

When was the lsat time you checked the price of RE-71R?  Tirerack has been discounting them since they've been discontinued.  I've heard Dunlop ZIII are similar but will wear a bit slower (no firsthand experience though).  I'm not too particular, so I tend to wait for rebates or discounts.  

I've never driven on hoosiers, but I've heard multiple people say they will grip much better, but when you lose traction it happens much more quickly & less predictably than with a conventional performance tire.  

Tom1200 said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

The key to Hoosiers is properly scrubbing them in The vintage TD-Rs I use will do 14 heat cycles

I was assuming we were talking about the Hoosier DOT R comps -- the A7 and R7.  I don't know anything about Hoosier slicks.