Targa Newfoundland 2009 is on!

In reply to Keith:

Keith, I'm waiting for the long ferry in Argentia right now, and it's late; running on one engine apparently. I've been meaning to chirp in on this thread all week, but the schedule has been so hectic, and I've been so tired every night, that I just haven't been able to.

I was set to run touring this year with my 356TD, but lunched the motor the day it was to be loaded on the trailer. Still sick about that, but we were able to compete by securing a 944 rent-a-racer.

The Targa Touring division is a great way for a first timer to see what Targa is all about. My co-driver (in Touring you can switch off) and I just had a blast. Great people, fun and challenging driving, and some of the most beautiful scenery I've ever seen. If it wasn't so expensive and time consuming, it would be something I'd think about doing every year.

I've been building my car for the last 4 years with taking it to Targa as one of my objectives, and so not getting it there feels like unfinished business of the worst kind. I don't know if I'll get another chance to take it there, but if I ever do, I'd jump on it.

Here's a link to buddies blog: http://harthearing.com/RaceforHearing/Blog/tabid/3949/Default.aspx

While it's true that Touring speeds are much slower, it's great in that it's so much more accessible for the average enthusiast. You don't need a caged car or a competition license, just a few minor mods to any street legal car and you're good to go. The challenge is in being precise in both your driving and in calculations, and in developing the teamwork needed between the driver and navigator. I guaranty that even touring speeds will get any first timers heart going, especially when in the navigators seat, and 2X at a stage like Brigus. To get to the skill level of the Trauttmansdorff's (the father and son team who zeroed EVERY STAGE this year) is as impressive to me now as that of any of the go-fast Targa guys.

For our week, we started OK on Monday with all zeros (easy with the 30 second window), still did pretty good Tues. (20 second window), then went all to hell on Wednesday (10 second window) with mistakes, confusion, and brain farts. Thursday was car trouble, DNF's & DNS's, and a mere 5 second window. Then after the first two stages on Friday we started to get it and zeroed the last 5 stages, even with a very slim 3 second margin -- sweet redemption.

We did get to see a bit of the Targa guys going (that's one good thing about breaking down) and were v. impressed with Hopkins in that very well prepared 2002, and Stoschek's sweet early ('65, same as my tub!) 911 was a personal favorite. That car is mad strong, and he is a wonderfully smooth driver. I'm a blatant retroist, so Millen's Nissan was a big snooze for me, but then there's no accounting for taste, is there?

My last few hours on The Rock, I'll miss it --

Thanks for giving us a view from the other side of the competition! If I came across as implying Touring was a "lesser" class, that was certainly not my intent. I know there's at least one Targa driver who feels that way, and it's not a complete coincidence that he's also the only person I've met through Targa that I don't have any real respect for. Hitting a three second window, that's tough.

You can split the driving/navigating duties in the Targa class as well if you'd like - the Vadeboncour brothers did that last year, and were the fastest novices in the race. But it's unusual for such a team to do well.

The need for a competition license for Targa is a good point, although attending the Targa school will give you the necessary credentials. That's run by Glen Clarke, by the way, and it's fairly obvious he knows what he's doing! In fact, the Targa organizers really really really want everyone to take the school. We didn't, simply due to logistical problems, but everyone who attended has always been very happy with it - Targa or Touring.

The ferry was only running on one engine last year

No further reports from Stillen or Jim Kenzie, we'll probably see something tomorrow from them. Final results have been posted for both Targa and Grand Touring. Looks like 32 finishers for the Targa class and 16 for Touring. Touring is split into Equipped and Unequipped classes depending on your odometer/computer setup, by the way.

Pictures!

I'll bet this was a pucker moment.

Yup, it was wet on the last day.

The wooden bridge in the Brigus stage. This Mini - Betty - is owned by Dick Patterson, and it's a real wonder under the skin. Dick reports that "there are more jumps in the stages than it says in the notes!" - part of the fun of running a classic Mini in the event. However, this is a spot where everyone gets some air. Dick's listed as a DNF, I don't know why.

Gordon's photos show a bunch of cars leaping on to the bridge, but only one car actually clearing the whole bridge and then some. By the way, the corner visible behind the cars caused some mayhem last year. You enter from the left of the picture, then over a crest on that square right. The course opening car came in too fast and understeered off the right side of this picture, taking out a fence that you can just see on the right of the Mini picture. Four more cars proceeded to drive through the fence over the course of the next few minutes, and the Dodge Challenger came very very close.

No explanation for this picture is available, but it should be noted that the Targa finish line is within a block of a wide variety of drinking establishments.

Here's what Tom (moTthediesel) and Steve were driving. The car doesn't show up in any of the online photo galleries from the official photographer unfortunately, so we don't have any action shots. Still, here's the shot of two proud racers at the finish line.

By the way, I had my classic Mini at the track day today as well as the Targa Miata. I took Janel out for a ride in the Mini. She found it terrifying by comparison to the Miata. I've been informed that if I want to race a classic Mini in Newfoundland, I'm doing it with a different codriver.

Keith wrote: I'm just wondering, MBS2005 - what would I do with half of an RX-7?

Weld it to the other half of a Miata. Duhhhhhh!

Keith, If you were aspiring to do the Targa Newfoundland someday, would a race prepared MGB or Datsun 240z be a better choice? Also where do you get a Mk1 Escort and Escort performance parts?

Could you rent an RV or a van to sleep in while you compete? What about camp grounds?

Mr M, I did the Targa last year.

Both MGBs and 240z's have competed in the past - in fact, you can see this year's 240z in the pictures. The B was produced over a long period, and the older ones would be more competitive because they'd have less aggressive base times to hit. I'll bet both would be a good car for the job. My recommendation would be to run the one you know best. The cars take quite a pounding, and you'll want to keep it healthy.

Mk1 Escorts and parts are fairly easily available in the UK. If you get a car with a competition logbook, then it's pretty much cleared to run.

Vintage machinery does require a little more work in the evenings on the part of the crew, of course.

I seem to recall there was an RV rental company offering special deals for competitors. It's not a bad idea. There were also a couple of "rock star" buses running around the year we ran. I'm not sure what sort of camping is available, but at the very least you could probably use the parking lot of the overnight service stop. Ask the event organizers about that, they're very helpful.

Jim Kenzie has reported in. He says the rain was so heavy on the last day that he could spin his wheels on the transit sections at 95 mph (60 mph) in top gear. That's partly due to Toyo R888s that had seen 5 days of hard running, of course. Last year we ran the RA-1 for fear of this exact situation. But he finished second in Open (there was a 40% retirement rate in that class) and he got his Targa Trophy plate, so that's a win.

You want a co driver Keith, just give me a call anytime

In reply to Keith:

Hey Keith

Stan here from the Turks and Caicos. We drove the E30 M3 this year and Paul drove the Mk1 . Glad you liked the car.He did an unreal job of it. We had a blast and drove our "you know whats off this year". Day 5 was like a skating rink but we held on to 5th and 8th and we won class 7 division with a second place second in the Modern Division only to the GTR. The M3 did everything i could have asked, very nicely balanced car. Anyhow, i just wanted to say what a great job you did with the blog, great coverage. We missed seeing you this year, you are a heck of a driver. I was truly glad to get back to rear wheel drive instead of the over powered Civic I had last year. It was my first front wheel drive car and also had the wheel on the right hand side. Yikes! This year we really loved what we ran and came out with the results we wanted. Hope to see you next year. keep up the good work Regards stan, Paul, Pierre, carol and gang

PS, Carol did her first year as navigator and was unreal. congrats Carol!

oh.. one last thing for the record, on that "tight on corner shot" we didn't even take and paint off the rim....whew!!

The stated goal of the scaled base times it to even the playing field between cars of all ages and modification levels. I think that's a great target. However, it seems like it's very difficult, perhaps nearly impossible, to win with a modern car. That tells me that the scaling is too strong. I'd like to see it dialed back a bit so that a 2009 GT-R, a 1995 Miata, and a 1969 2002 would all stand an equal chance of winning. As it is, it seems that you essentially NEED a classic car to win this competition.

Keith, what are your thoughts on the current system of scaling base times?

Keith wrote: Mk1 Escorts and parts are fairly easily available in the UK. If you get a car with a competition logbook, then it's pretty much cleared to run.

They are, but they're expensive over here, especially if they've had any sort of competition prep and/or a two door shell. Even good two door shells for Mk1s are hitting four figures...

Stan, great to hear from you! Good work on the race this year for both Turks and Caicos teams, you guys did a fantastic job. Hopefully we will see you back on the Rock next year.

BoxheadTim wrote:

Keith wrote: Mk1 Escorts and parts are fairly easily available in the UK. If you get a car with a competition logbook, then it's pretty much cleared to run.

They are, but they're expensive over here, especially if they've had any sort of competition prep and/or a two door shell. Even good two door shells for Mk1s are hitting four figures...

True, but they're still cheaper than a stock GTR!

The "the handicapping isn't right!" and "a modern car can't win!" conversation happens every year. I linked earlier to an attempt to quantify how the scaling factors work out. There are going to be some outliers, of course (including my class) but it does show that most of the classes are pretty evenly matched.

Remember that the GTR was driven by a novice team. Sure, Steve Millen may have quite a resume, but he's never run Targa Newfoundland before. I'm sure he already knows how he can do better next year. He was also running with an inexperienced navigator. Expecting that car to win the whole enchilada first time out is a bit much. Roy Hopkins has three consecutive wins and I don't know how many runs at the event. If we were assigning points for finishing positions, I'll bet Jud Buchanen would be the Targa champion for consistently high finishes every year - and he's done the race seven times. I'll bet he doesn't need pace notes for some of those stages. So of course those two are going to be at the top of the leaderboard regardless of their car.

Could my 1994 Miata have been more competitive? Certainly. I already know what I would do to the suspension and I think some serious engine work could unlock another 40 horsepower. Most importantly, a different driver/navigator combo would have placed higher. Heck, we could take the same car and same team back and finish higher. Send me money, I'll prove it.

If the GTR comes back, it may have a very good chance at a high finish. Last year, there were 4 modern cars in the top 10, including a Mitsubishi with a team of Targa novices in third place. Could they have won if they'd returned? Quite possibly. That's one thing about the Modern cars - you don't tend to see them coming back again and again like Roy's 2002 or Jud's Acadian.

But it's not all experience, that's true. Just look at Michael Stoschek in his 1965 911. Obviously a fast driver. Because of the age of the car, it's also in class 3 which has more generous base times. The 911 is obviously a good car for the race, just witness how many of them are near the front of the pack. And people have been racing 1965 911s for 44 years, and the car very likely shows the results of that.

By the way, I was wrong about the winning time last year. I said it was 45 seconds, but checking the results show that it was actually 25.

2008 results

0:00:25 1969 BMW 2002 Roy Hopkins/Adrienne Hughes

0:00:36 1967 Acadian Canso Sport Coupe Jud Buchanan/Jim Adams

0:00:44 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution GSR Andrew Comrie Picard/Jen Horsey

0:00:52 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Mike Mackenzie/Kirk Alexander

0:01:48 2008 Subaru WRX Sti John Paynter/Clarke Paynter

I've also been following the Targa reports provided here and on the Motorsport Club of Ottawa forums as there were several MCO teams who participated this year. Here's the link to the most MCO report including a short note from the Trauttmansdorff team who won the Touring class http://www.mco.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10582&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=25

Thank you Keith for the excellent updates and super information. It made my day - all week...

Gordon Garrard Osgoode, ON, Canada

Stillen blog update! Based on their comments and comments by both Steve Millen and the journalist navigator, they're all pretty upset about the handicapping system. Basically, they think it's impossible for a Modern car to win even if they did post the fastest times every day. Again, it comes down to a misunderstanding on how handicapping work. The only way a Modern car can win is to post the fastest times. They're supposedly the fastest of the lot, so they have to be the fastest in order to win.

It's got a bit of sour grapes to it. The stated goal was to win the Targa outright. With an untested car being driven by a novice driver with a novice navigator. The fact that they had to make major changes to the suspension setup the night before the race shows the effects of a lack of experience in a unique event.

Again, I think that if the GTR came back with the same driver and possibly a different navigator (the penalties on day 3 came about due to inexperience, and they say as much on the R&T website), it could certainly win the whole thing. The 3rd place finish of the Mitsubishi team shows that - they were only 19 seconds off the winners last year, with a Targa rookie driver/navigator team but a more sorted rally car. Hopefully Stillen will show themselves to be true racers and will come back next year to contest the top spot. Ford didn't win Le Mans on the first try with the GT40 either. If they'd quit after the first try, that car wouldn't be a legend.

Hopefully the slightly whiny "we should have won but the event is biased" tone of the navigator's comments won't be reflected in the R&T magazine coverage. The guys focused on the hardware and forgot to take the human factor into account. Still, if the article is critical enough about the scoring system, the organizers just might alter it to stem some of the damage.

It's interesting to note that the Targa Canada West basically doesn't care if you have a slower car. That event is all about the fastest and meanest car. Newfoundland tries to level the playing field, TCW makes it very clear what matters in their scoring system. Coincidentally, the tech inspector for TCW ran a new Evo at Targa 2008, until he blew it up from poor tuning. I think that event will have a very different feel to it.

Brust wrote: Tell me those aren't Harbor Freight jack stands under the GTR. I'm pretty sure they are.

I looked at the pic and said the exact same thing!

Keith,

I can't help but say you've been awfully critical of the "Stillen Marketing" machine for someone who has re-posted so many photos from their blog, the least you could do is give credit where credit is due.

Also when you attribute a quote to Steve Millen you should differentiate between what's posted on the blog and something he actually said. Do you think when you ran last year you'd proof everything someone else is writing, or drive?

Again you come back with a) Hey they said they were gunning for the win, and b) they don't think any modern class car can win under the current system. Forget Stillen for the moment, you yourself recommended a Cosworth Ford not a Modern Car as the sweet spot contender, and BTW has ANY modern class car EVER won in all the years Targa has been run?

Sorry to be a pest, but you should not simultaneously make thinly veil disparaging remarks about Steve's team prep for the race (or their mistakes, which are of course valid and I am sure he'd be the first to admit it), then pinch all those photos people love so much w/o saying they are just links to the Stillen blog, where there are a great deal more.

How many people who thanked you profusely for this content are aware that so much of the early Photo content came right off Stillen's "Marketing Machine" blog?

http://blog.stillen.com/wp-content/gallery/targa_091409_a/Targa%202009%20Day%202%20354.JPG http://blog.stillen.com/wp-content/gallery/targa_091409_a/Targa%202009%20Day%202%20345.JPG

You even re-posted Stillen pics for your own "personal story"? Man that is shameless.

"Anyhow.... It was pretty wet yesterday morning. This is Argentia. We didn't get to run much of this stage last year, as a Mini went into a ditch and the stage got canceled. We were the first on the scene, Janel was quite calm about the whole thing."

http://blog.stillen.com/wp-content/gallery/targa_091409_a/Targa%202009%20Day%202%20032.JPG

http://blog.stillen.com/wp-content/gallery/targa_091509_a/Targa%202009%20Day%203%20051.JPG Steve drove the car from Maine to Newfoundland, the CO's were probably just catching up with him, not some last minute "OMG I need different suspension!"

At the end of the day I don't hear "Sour Grapes" other than maybe from someone who just can't deal with being home instead of racing, taking shots at the guys with the Big Money Cars and Big Money Team. It's understandable, I'd want to be there too.

Steve's racing record and professionalism are impeccable. You need to do a better job of making it clear who you're bashing here, and especially if you're not at the event, pinching content from Stillen's blog as ammo to torpedo their effort is just dishonest. They made their mistakes, it's obvious to anyone who understands the rules. So did lots of other people, so why are you picking out Steve for special attention, then posting half your updates from his company's blog?

Everyone else, if you want to see a great selection of photos just go to Stillen's Blog where they also posted stage by stage resultsprofessionally Kyle is just doing his job, and pretty well IMHO. No Modern class car has ever won, so he's entitled to his opinion that it can't happen (I don't agree, if they drove pretty much penalty free they would have won, that's asking a lot).

http://blog.stillen.com/

If there's any sour grapes here Keith I have to say IMHO it's from the guy w/o Stillen's budget, it's always easy to take shots at the Big Dog if they are not perfect.

Best Regards, Steve

superblackser wrote: Blah blah blah

Hey "Steve", just curious as to what your last name is...

Sorry, I just had to, but what really sold it for me was this part:

Everyone else, if you want to see a great selection of photos just go to Stillen's Blog where they also posted stage by stage resultsprofessionally Kyle is just doing his job, and pretty well IMHO.

I don't think anybody was under the impression that Keith wasn't pulling this info/pictures from somewhere, but he did an AMAZINGLY fine job being a "cyber" spectator putting everything into an "experienced" take on the unfoldings of the event wrapped up into easy to read postings. The fact of the matter is, arrogance (I can't say it was a ton, but it shows in the "marketing") of being able to win Targa on a first outting is ABSURD. As such (and with arrogance in general) expect it to be thrown back.

I wish I could say that we’re excited to come back next year but I really don’t think we’ll be coming back unless there is a serious overhaul of the timing and scoring.

Yep, definitly sour grapes. How petty, to say "Oh yea, its a great event, but we're not coming back until they change the rules in our favor".

Terrible, terrible attitude!

Edit- Hmm, as far as I can tell "Steve" is just a Stillen fanboy. Must be the first name or somethin'

Not from this year, but damn I love this pic:

Carry on.

In reply to HiTempguy:

Steve Tracy. No "e". No relation outside same species.

It's not arrogant to say your Goal is to win. I never saw any direct quote from Steve Millen stating they would win. Go back to page one - I stated before the start I did not think they would win, at best they had a shot a podium spot. You and others make it sound like they came up to bat, pointed to the outfield bleachers and said "we're going to knock one out of here". Not seeing it.

Does that sound like a "Stillen Fanboy", whatever the heck that is? I am a fan of Steve Millen, which is obvious, he's a talented and experienced driver with an impressive record. Despite that in person he's not arrogant, which is really refreshing after meeting so many big name drivers over the years who are insufferably arrogant. Stillen the company, meh, there's good and bad there, like most places. I do find their marketing can a little much at times, sure.

Their much-maligned car prep was hot air, the car performed very well. It wasn't too low, too complex, and there is definitely a subtle backlash there too - same kind of things I hear from other drivers like "oh the computer drives the car, not the driver". It's not an old 911, the attitude backlash seems to be somehow the entire car is inherently arrogant just by being there. Definitely techno-retro-grouch-ism at work. To each his own. I'd rather have an original R32 GT-R than a new one.

I personally race an 18 year old car, former SCC SE-R project car. I could easily afford to be driving an STi or Evo, or other more modern cars. I own a '04 G Coupe, which for me like the 350Z is just heavier than I'd like in a car for competition, it's a family car/DD. It's great to see a 2002 atop the standings, I used to drive one in the 70's that belonged to a friend. I prefer lighter cars with less power and that by default pretty much means older.

I've already stated I don't agree with their blog assertion that they "could not win" due to the rules. However, not once have I seen or heard Steve Millen state that he thought "they could not win" due to the rules.

Keith did a good job of pointing out their mistakes on three stages that pretty much cost them a shot at the overall win. So did Stillen's blog. Keith is also correct that a more experienced navigator would have been a big help especially the bonehead error of penalties for misjudging their arrival on a stage where they had clear road and just slowed down too much. Rookie mistake.

It would be too bad if they didn't come back. Every penalty, you can point to specific actions on the part of the Driver/Navigator which IMHO were within their control. Being unable to pass the Subie, well, that's racing, no?

BUT - I don't think you should simultaneously bash someone else's blog content where you don't agree with it, yet use their other content in your own blog. Esp w/o attributing the source is the same blog you've just bashed, that's kind of duplicitous at best. Maybe they should emblazoned all their photos with prominent Stillen logos like the Targa pics...but then I'd hear complaints about that, too.

Bottom line is would you face-to-face make the same assertions to Steve and his crew that you put in your blog? If the answer is no, then they shouldn't be there, or you're just hiding behind a blog. If the answer is yes, then all the power to you, and post it on Stillen's forums or tell it to the man.

They made mistakes, they didn't win. If was a good effort. A class win is something, I don't think many would disagree with that. Singling them out for extra-bashing treatment is however not cool.

Steve "not Millen" Tracy (no "e") Canton, CT

Um - I didn't read it as Keith trying to bash Stillen. I think you're being a bit over-sensitive.

First of all, this isn't a blog. It's a thread on a message board, in a community that Keith has been a big part of for a long time. He's not being a journalist here, he's just sharing some thoughts and cool pictures with his friends.

I didn't read Keith's posts as bashing Stillen either. He may have been somewhat critical of their effort, but he certainly wasn't disrespecting it. And he attributed the photgraphic content to the Stillen blog and linked appropriately. To be honest, your posts have done more harm to Stillen's image in my eyes. I am disappointed if it is true that Stillen won't be back due to their dissatisfaction with the scoring. That seems like a sour grapes move to me, and it sort of reminds me of what sometimes happens when experienced road racers or track day veterans enter an autocross expecting to be immediately competitive in this "lesser" form of motorsports. Some of them don't like losing to much "slower" cars, complain about the rules or operation of the event, and don't come back. Some of them gain a new respect for a group of people who have been cultivating a slightly different but no lesser skill than their own, and end up being respected members of both communities. I really hope Stillen takes the latter approach.

Hey - nice shot of Chris Willett and me in the dark blue mini 'Lucy' on that bridge. It was slick as ice. I know because I looped her moments after that shot.

That day was tough - visibility was terrible, the car was filling with water, we could not run the demister becasue of a failed alternator, lost a cylinder because of a soaked engine and we were hydroplaning the entire day. Event the transits were unbelievably arduous. On the last day we could not even change lanes during the transits because of heavy water on the road.

Keeping the old cars on the road is a major undertaking. Being competetive is even tougher. That being said - if you love a challenge this event will provide.

This was my second Targa Newfoundland. What a great event !

Dave Pledger

Dave - Thanks for dropping in! For those who don't know, Dave has a great attitude when it comes to "pressing on". Lucy has presented him with many opportunities to throw in the towel, but between his optimism and the support of all of the other LBC crews they've managed to get that car to the finish two years in a row.

Also, for those who don't know, a Mini's distributor is at the front of the engine and is designed to cut out when you hit heavy rain. Losing only one cylinder in those conditions is actually pretty impressive Even in a perfectly functioning classic Mini, the race would be tough.

I'm pretty sure this picture was taken immediately after the previous shot of Lucy:

Now I could be reading Keith's post through "biased eyes" of my own based on his extremely positive and helpful history here and on other forums, but I really, REALLY don't see where you're coming from.

It's completely reasonable to take the good and the bad from Any source, and use it accordingly to make points. I don't toss out every article I read if there are points in it I disagree with. Not only would that be foolish, I'd never find myself online again.

FWIW, I enjoyed the updates (seasoned with experience) that Keith has provided.

Hey keith

I was just about to post that picture of my 'moment of indiscretion' Yes - that is Lucy a mere second after the first shot - seemed like an hour. Looping her was the only way to avoid scratching the paint (read - hitting the rock wall at the end of the bridge)

Thanks for the kind words - Persistence and determination are omnipotent

Cheers

dave