Targa Newfoundland 2009 is on!

superblackser wrote: Keith, Lot's of whining and fan boy cry baby stuff Best Regards, Steve

superblackser wrote: Ditto Steve "not Millen" Tracy (no "e") Canton, CT

Come on, Keith called it as a past competitor. He's stated admiration for Steve, the car and the team. He called them out fairly for. A) Their (in my opinion) arrogant assertion they were going to win as novices in this style of event B) Their incorrect preparation for the event as witnessed by the fact the car sprouted some extra ground clearance at the start, more evidence of their novice approach C) Their whining about the rules which unfairly penalize modern cars. Hey, if you don't like the rule structure don't go and play, go cherry pick a different event or format.

Great team, great car, great driver who performed above and beyond some peoples expectations considering the handicap of a big, heavy modern vehicle.

I posted a lot about Stillen for two reasons: there was a huge amount of publicity and excitement around the car, and they were one of the few teams posting regular updates. It's tough to gather information about the race from afar. I did link to the Stillen blog several times over the course of the race and I always identified when I was reporting on what Stillen had posted. I also tried to discriminate between Stillen the marketing machine and Steve Millen the driver. A lot of people wanted to know how Godzilla was doing, so I spent more time discussing it than I did some of the other efforts. I could have spent more time talking about Jim Kenzie's struggles with his new MINI race car - he's a past Modern class winner who had a massive crash last year and was trying to set up a new car for the event, with some difficulty. I think he was limited somewhat by the equipment on the car when he got it. But the attention was on the GTR, so I spent more time on the GTR.

From the Road and Track website:

Steve Millen said: Unfortunately our overall result is not indicative of our actual performance, due to the Targa scoring system.

Mike Monticello said: Steve came here with one goal in mind, to win the Targa overall.

The Stillen website also had a big banner on the front page that said something along the lines of "When Steve wins...". I don't recall the exact verbiage, but it's gone now.

I did think before the event that the GTR was too low, that it had been prepped without prior knowledge of the roads. And once the team got to Newfoundland and discovered the conditions of the roads, they addressed the problem and I applauded that. This is a lesson I learned myself, and one just about any Targa Newfoundland veteran will tell you.

Steve Millen certainly has Targa experience - he's run Targa NZ 7 times and finished in the top ten five times. That's a different event with different roads and different scoring, though. Newfoundland has its own quirks.

I would have loved to talk to whoever was writing that blog. As I mentioned, I've been in that position, trying to report on a race while being on the service crew. It's tough. Unfortunately, there's no way to contact the writer and comments were disabled on the blog. So there was no opportunity. So I tried to add some perspective to the comments posted there in the only way I could.

Steve Millen (in a video found here) said "I've been here for a few days now, I've seen the kind of roads that there are in Newfoundland, and I've decided we arrived with the car too low and too soft". That's an intelligent decision to make.

If my focus on the Stillen team came across as critical, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. It's fun to watch a full-on team like this take on the event, and a service crew that can work late into the night is something every Targa competitor would love to have. This is the GRM forum, so it's likely that any of the readers here would have a more modest effort and I pointed out how this would affect the event.

No Modern car has ever won Targa outright. That doesn't mean they haven't come close, though. As I said, Mitsubishi came in third by 19 seconds last year. But the team didn't return. Again, I'm not sure of any Modern teams that have made a serious attempt over several years to win. It would take someone with a longer connection with Targa to answer that question though.

I pegged a Mk1 Escort as my "I think this could win outright" car because of how it fits into the rules - the later development of that BDA engine allows you to create a car that simply didn't exist in 1968. Honestly, I never considered what new car could also take the top spot because I have a tendency to prefer older stuff - just look at my garage for proof of that. I think a V8 Miata could also have the potential to win outright with the right team and the right setup, and if I go back I'll do my best to prove it

One thing I haven't mentioned - when you're actually running the Targa, you're not racing other teams. I really had no idea where we were in the standings other than checking the notice board at the beginning of each day. We were racing the clock, trying to beat those base times.

The fact that one competitor can rarely affect another one in a rally - unless there's a massive speed difference - means that it's a very cooperative motorsport. Nobody wants to see another car fail to finish, that's not fun at all. So you work together. The number of teams that help out other teams is enormous, and there's actually a service crew award to recognize this.

I've just heard from Roy Hokpins via email, and he's given me some really good insights into this year's race. As soon as he says it's okay, I'll share them here. He did point out that he missed winning the 2005 Targa with a Modern car (an E30 M3) by a 1 second margin, and "I still remember the corner I lugged in second gear instead of using first…" He also says his current 2002 is faster overall than the E30 was.

Hello there,

As you can tell by my username I am the author for STILLEN from the Targa Newfoundland event. I would like to start by saying that I am merely an enthusiast of motorsports, a STILLEN employee, and a Millen family member, in no way do I claim to be on the same level of professional editor's, or photographer's. I'm just a guy with an opinion, a keyboard, and a camera. I tried to report the facts as best I could.

First off I would like to thank Keith for following along with us and using our blog to update everyone on the Targa Newfoundland rally. I'm glad that the information and photos I posted was helpful.

Now I would like to clarify a few things: The size of our team, our feelings on the current scoring/timing system used in Targa Newfoundland, and our experience with vehicle preparation. As well as my reporting.

For starters, our team consisted of really only six people: Driver: Steve Millen Co-Driver: Mike Monticello Mechanic's: Mark Ungles and Joe Nagy Team "manager": Jodi Millen (steve's wife) Team Reporter/blogger: Kyle Millen (me)

We are a very small team and we did not have a very large backing. We went there with our GT-R, which was delivered to Bangor, Maine in a trailer and then driven to Newfoundland, raced for the week, and then driven back to Bangor, Maine where it is being shipped to Texas for the National Z car convention in San Antonio. Our service van consisted of a U-haul rental van which was rented in Newfoundland when we got there. The only support we received from NISSAN corporate was some assistance in getting the replacement CV boots. Everything else was organized by us or STILLEN. Only one of our mechanic's has Nissan GTR specific experience and that was Joe Nagy. He works for Nissan North America at the proving grounds and was with Steve when they ran the car in the 2008 Road and Track story against the Porsche and Corvette. He also worked with Steve at the Media launch and dealer introduction in Las Vegas and Reno-Fernley raceways. Because of this time together Steve felt comfortable in his abilities and invited Joe to join us on the rally. Our other mechanic, Mark Ungles, is actually a UTI trained BMW technician who is now working as a Ferrari technician. He started working with us on the Ford GT Targa's after Steve asked me if I had any buddies interested in going on the rally to crew for us. We prepared the car here with our engineer's and mechanic's but obviously business needs to stay on track while we're gone so unfortunately they had to stay back at the shop.

In regards to our views of the scoring system. Our words were echoed by the majority of the competitor's. We had dozens of teams and even the officials coming to us at the end of the week acknowledging that we got screwed by the scoring system. The clerks of the course came to our table at the final banquet and apologized and promised that there will be major changes to the scoring system in the future because they saw that there is no way a modern car can win the overall with their current structure. We were not the only ones who were upset with the outcome and we aren't just complaining about it. Take for example our results in the Dunlop Targa in New Zealand. We have never won that event overall and we could not be happier with our finishes in those events. Each year we look forward to returning and competing. It should come as no surprise that we prefer to run as hard as possible, to be slowed down to meet the goal time or to be penalized for not meeting unrealistic goal times is extremely frustrating. We understood the challenge before we went, and now, after speaking with the Targa officials we all agree that there was no way we could have won.

We were criticized all week for the ride height of our GTR. All week long we were told that it wouldn't survive, and we were running a tire profile that was too short and we'd blow out tires or bend wheels. The only ride height adjustment we made was raising the car a 1/2 inch when we originally got to St. John's, Newfoundland. The photo that you posted with the car on the alignment rack where it has a large gap between the tires and wheel arches...If you look underneath the car you will see the hydraulic jacks supporting the car. We were nowhere near that ride height when we competed.

We have been competing in Targa rallies for many years but this was our first experience in the Newfoundland rally. We knew that the roads were rough, we had no idea HOW rough. To prepare for this we lined the underside of the car with teflon skid blocks, we learned this trick on our Ford GT. That way when the car did bottom out it would ride on the blocks rather than the car. We carried a complete set of replacement blocks so that if they broke or wore out we would replace them. They worked perfectly and did their job exactly as designed!

Obviously we went to Newfoundland to have a good time. Steve Millen is a great driver and a die hard racer. He would be competing in these events even if we did not have STILLEN. Again, take for example our past experience with Targa New Zealand. We ran that event for five years without saying a word about it until we prepared our Ford GT. Then we started promoting it a little bit. It would be silly for the company to take an opportunity like this and not promote it. We are all very excited about this event and we have a lot of customer's who are as well.

At the end of the day we had a good time. We prefer events like Targa New Zealand where there are no handicap systems. They get 130+ cars and probably only about a dozen of them can actually win. However, everyone goes and has a great time and gets to drive their heart out for a week in environments that would otherwise be open to public traffic. Targa New Zealand and Targa Newfoundland fall right around the same time so in the future our decision will be to go to Targa New Zealand. It's kind of like bracket drag racing. Some people really like that form of drag racing while others just want to run wide open. We just prefer to run wide open. In reality, we did win. We won our modern division and the manufacturer's cup and we're proud of both achievements. Our closest competition in modern was the Subaru who finished 12th overall.

We will be releasing in-car video's in the next few day's where you will see the driver and co-driver discussing their average speed (trying not to exceed the 135 KPH limit) and slowing down to fall within the alotted time. I did not make that up or embelish that fact. This car is FAST and so is our driver.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post and hear me out. Not trying to flame anyone or start any arguments, I just thought I would share our opinions.

One thing I forgot to mention is that we also really enjoyed meeting all the different competitors and the locals of Newfoundland. The hospitality was amazing and the competitors and locals were some of the nicest people I've ever met. Many of the teams were reaching out to the other competitors to lend a helping hand or even parts. It was pretty awesome to watch and experience!

Kyle, thanks for chiming in and I'm really glad to hear you enjoyed the race.

The 135 kmh maximum average speed wasn't in place last year. Instead, we had 80 kmh Speed Restriction Zones on stages like Leading Tickles to keep the average speed down. Nobody liked them, and they penalized the faster teams more than the slower ones. So they were removed and the maximum average put in place.

In earlier years, there were actually both and the maximum speed was lower - I believe this was due to the FIA being involved in the regulations. The reason for restrictions on the speed is to help with safety - whether real or perceived - as there is always pressure from those who don't like the race to brand it as dangerous and get it shut down. For the slower teams, of course, it's not a factor. For the faster ones of course, it's something that needs to be watched. There are probably only a half dozen teams for whom this is a real concern on a regular basis.

There have to be some unrealistic goal times in the Targa. The event relies on penalty points to separate the teams. And of course, every year the competition gets harder. Roy Hopkins mentioned that they've never been faster than they were this year, clearing stages that used to give them penalties.

Teflon blocks on the impact points, good plan. I used my car's subframe braces. Did the job (and threw a few sparks) but the Teflon is a smarter way to go.

It's very cool that we've heard from four of the teams that ran the race so far, and I've had an email from another. Every team has their own stories of trials, tribulations, obstacles overcome, heroic efforts and near misses.

I think the GTR could win overall if Stillen came back for another run at the event, even under the current rules. I'd love to see it happen. And I hope I'm there to welcome them!

By the way, here are a couple of shots of the sort of prep that Mk1 Escort underwent from the shop that did the work. By all accounts, it was a beautifully set up car. This is not Paul Horton's Mk1, but a Mk2 under the knife.

Personally, I enjoy reading about Targa Newfoundland, and look forward to watching more videos. I like the fact that some teams can and do post during the event, but appreciate that both shoestring and corporate operations have a lot going on between stages. Writing it up takes time. Thanks, Keith and Kyle, for posting info and insights. No one can cover everything, even in a small event.
Watching Targa Newfoundland in person is on my to-do list. With a friend owning a house in St. John's and planning to retire there soon, I'm getting even closer to doing it! I hope they don't tweak the rules too much ... a spec Targa wouldn't be much fun.

We definitely understand the safety reasoning for sticking to a 200 KPH top speed limit as well as the 135 average. Targa New Zealand has the same rules and they work very well and it is a great idea. To help with achieving those goals they actually put similar speed restriction zones in a few of the really fast stages so that it would bring down the overall average. The big difference though was the placement of the Targa New Zealand speed restriction zones in relation to the placement of the Targa Newfoundland speed restriction zones. In New Zealand the speed restriction zones were actually 50 KPH but they were in the very beginning of the stages most of the time. The only time a speed restriction zone was in place away from the start line was if we were crossing over a bridge that might not be in good enough condition to handle race cars traversing over it at high speeds.

The speed restrictions are there for safety and they are a great idea. No one needs to be going over 200 KPH around roads and through communities they aren't familiar with.

Kyle, I'd love to hear more about the differences between the Newfoundland and NZ races. Obviously, the Newfoundland organizers are still playing with the formula to keep the speeds down a bit.

I expect the next set of rules (the rules are stable for at least three years, and next year they get revisited) will outlaw tires with a treadwear rating below 140 or so. That idea was proposed for 2009 but retracted. There's not much danger of Spec Targa coming, though. Everyone enjoys a wide variety of cars and the goal of the organizers is to make it easy for as many people as possible to take part.

A few notes from Roy Hopkins. He says the last day this year was incredibly slippery. "I’ve never pushed so hard, or come so close to crashing. I’m glad we spend our winters Ice Racing." He was running on Toyo RA1s instead of the R888, and I suspect the RA1 is a better choice for deep water. He used his two "spare tires" on the wet day - preserving them was a strategy decision made earlier in the week that paid off. Remember, you're only allowed 6 tires for the event.

He also reports they had a U-joint failure before the event. A local auto parts store opened up at 10pm on Saturday and helped them find one that fit - a perfect example of how the locals pitch in to make the Targa work. A club member in Montreal also pulled the driveshaft out of his own car and put it on a plane to St. John's, arriving only 5 hours after Roy called him for help.

They also had a close call on Thursday. The car started to starve for fuel and was stumbling on the road sections. That night, they discovered the fuel cell foam was coming apart and clogging the pickup - Roy figures they were minutes from a breakdown. They were lucky to get to the service stop and find/fix the problem.

Roy works hard on his car to make it competitive, and reports that it is built specifically for the race. I'll bet it's a pretty fun street car as well As I mentioned earlier, it's quicker than his previous E30 M3. Based on the speed at which one of those passed me last year on a stage, that means he's very fast!

Glen Clarke's drop from the lead on the last day was because he made the decision that it was just too dangerous for him to compete for the lead in those conditions. His car (2300 lbs and over 300 hp, according to Roy) was third-fastest overall behind the Nissan and the Audi in the dry, but he couldn't drive over 90 kmh in the flooded conditions. So he wisely backed off.

Stoschek in the vintage 911 was apparently very well prepared. Either he or his navigator (I wasn't sure from Roy's note, but since his navigator is American I suspect the former) is a European vintage rally champion and the car was near perfect. He'd come with the intent to win. And, as with so many other Targa competitors, helpful and interesting to talk to. A fine addition to the Targa family from the sounds of things.

Jud in the Acadian had some clutch trouble early in the week. The real surprise in Roy's eyes was Yullie in the yellow Camaro. I thought I recognized the car, it had run last year but with a different owner. Yullie took a "new" car and finished tied for third after posting some fantastic times in the wet.

And finally, I'm just going to quote Roy because I couldn't say it better.

Roy Hopkins said: Forget the competition – Targa is worth doing no matter what the car or your goals. Sacrifice a season or two of ‘little’ events and go do Targa while you can. It is truly live changing. The logo may be ‘Its about the Drive’, but we think it should be “Its about the People”

Keith wrote: Kyle, I'd love to hear more about the differences between the Newfoundland and NZ races. Obviously, the Newfoundland organizers are still playing with the formula to keep the speeds down a bit. I expect the next set of rules (the rules are stable for at least three years, and next year they get revisited) will outlaw tires with a treadwear rating below 140 or so. That idea was proposed for 2009 but retracted. There's not much danger of Spec Targa coming, though. Everyone enjoys a wide variety of cars and the goal of the organizers is to make it easy for as many people as possible to take part.

Targa New Zealand has a very similar concept as Targa Newfoundland but there are a few major differences. The primary difference is there are no goal times. There are different classes of course, and everyone competes within their class but only the class 9 cars really shoot for the overall win. I understand the concept of the handicapping is to give everyone a "fair shot" at winning overall but in my opinion, that concept should be left at AYSO soccer. To come up with a fair and equal format that works for all classes is close to, if not, impossible. With that being said, I don't envy the organizer's of Targa NFL. They take a lot of heat for their scoring structure but all they want to do is make the week fun for everyone and give everyone a chance at winning. They're darned if they do and darned if they don't.

As you touched on earlier one of the major issues or competitor concerns with the NFL structure is that if you made a mistake on day one that might have cost you 20 seconds, no matter how hard you push through the rest of the week you can't make up that 20 seconds. For example the mistake our guys made on day 2 or 3. They went slow on stage 3 because during Stage 1 and 2 they were too fast and because of this they took a 16 second penalty which they could never make up again.

This is also strictly my opinion but I think that people really enjoy watching the really fast cars come out and stretch their legs. For example, in Targa NZ you will get a couple R34's, one or two R35's, three or four Porsche's (even a couple of GT3 RS's, a dozen or so WRX's, basically you get really fast, competitive cars. Spectator's enjoy watching those cars because they are so exciting to watch. You still get the guy's in the Camaro's and the older classic cars and you also get the smaller budget guy's in the Honda's and Mini's and at the end of the day everyone has a great time. Targa NZ gets over 100 entries per year. Targa NFL hasn't seen that many entries since their first year. They have steadily been declining in their number of entries. Because the fast cars know they can't win. And they aren't going to spend the money to come out and loose.

Now that I have said all that I also wanting to back it up by saying that I am in the process of building a Nissan Sentra which I will be using as a personal track vehicle. I personally do not have a big budget and I personally can not afford to race a 350Z or GTR or anything like it. I am going to be preparing this Sentra on a very tight budget but I just want to get out and race it. For a guy like me, a Targa Newfoundland event would be an absolute blast and I would not be concerned at all about where I finish, I just want to go out and spin the tires. That's what these Targa races are all about. At the end of the week we go out there and we push these cars hard and we get a participants plate, a beer, and a handshake. There is no prize money, there is no pit girl to congratulate you, it's just about the fun and the passion of going fast and pushing your car to its limits.

If anyone calls themselves a Motorsport enthusiast I encourage them to do their best to compete in a Targa rally at least once. Bribe some friends with free beer and food and have a fun week. It doesn't matter where you finish, it doesn't matter what you're driving, no matter what, you will have a fun time!!!

kyleatstillen wrote: Targa NFL hasn't seen that many entries since their first year. They have steadily been declining in their number of entries. Because the fast cars know they can't win. And they aren't going to spend the money to come out and loose.

What are your sources on that? I did a quick survey on rallyscoring.com, and there are more cars every year. There was a slight drop this year, but it doesn't take much imagination to figure out why that might be. The peak looks like it was 2006 or 2007, not 2001. There were five manufacturer teams this year despite the demolition of factory motorsport budgets, which is the same as last year. The handicapping does attract a wide variety of cars. I suspect the organizers are thinking more of the Panamerica or Mille Miglia crowd, giving vintage cars a place to run free and hard instead of forming a pseudo-WRC event. That said, I'd love to see Loeb show up in Newfoundland and prove to one and all that an open class car can certainly win the whole thing

I don't remember the Newfoundland organizers catching particular heat for the handicapping last year, but perhaps it's because there wasn't such a high-profile team doing real-time updates. With two 2008 cars in the top five, it also didn't appear to be a problem.

Targa Canada West is modeled after the southern hemisphere Targas, with the same focus on highly modified modern machinery. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.

Keith wrote: No Modern car has ever won Targa outright. That doesn't mean they haven't come close, though. As I said, Mitsubishi came in third by 19 seconds last year. But the team didn't return. Again, I'm not sure of any Modern teams that have made a serious attempt over several years to win. It would take someone with a longer connection with Targa to answer that question though.

That was Andrew Comrie-Picard or ACP.

I don't know what ACPs plans are for the future however this year there were two rallies in conflict with Targa Newfoundland - CDN National Rallye Defi was just before and US National Rally Colorado was right at the end. ACP is running a very agressive schedule in both National series and I am pretty sure that the car he runs in Canada (EVO X) is the car that he ran at Newfoundland last year. That likely explains why he was not at Targa this year.

Hi Keith,

This is Paul Horton , Thanks for all your kind words and the interest in my Escort MK 1 , I have read all the articles here and there are a number of comments I would like to make , I know there is a lot of talk about the advantage that the older cars have, like you said read the rules and build a car to suit , take for example Glen's Porsche , engine 300 plus bhp ,gears to suit the open stages also low gears to suit town stages also with a fantastic talet behind the wheel , some of the stages he was zeroing was mindblowing , if you think that the guy's like Roy,Jud and Bob Yuille have big advantages think again I drove my arse of in a small Escort and these guys cars weigh more, alot bigger and Jud how he can put his car in a gander stage and only loose 1 second is unreal , these guys are all great drivers with old cars , no traction control ,no four wheel drive ,no launch contol, and no months of testing prior to the event , just pure talent , also all of the older cars have to transit the same kilometres as the new ones , about 1,800 of transit sections plus the special stages on top, the older cars have to suvive this all week and also find the parts if they brakedown, so thats why the handicap timing is in place and is great when a 1968 escort gives a 2009 Nissan a fight for position , saying this I built my car to suit this rally just like Ford would build a car for the safari , it is an event that you have to go to and mature each and ever year to improve and learn , when to push hard and when to back off , drivers like Glen , Roy and Jud and the navigators Andy, Adrienne and Jim tell me they are still learning after 7 years and myself and my team mate Stan Hartling can tell you when you start to get into the top ten you have to be on your game for 5 days straight and no mistakes , I made 3 mistakes all week 2 big spins and one other , take a look at Roy's 10 second penalties all week after 42 special stages plus transits what a fantastic achevement . Old or new you have the choice but take it from me there is far more than just car to win this event , now all I have to do is match the driving abilty of my superb Ford Escort MK 1 what a blast to drive and she didn't let us down all week , a special thanks to Carol my navigator first time in the car and first rally what a job you did , also my team mates Stan and Pierre great result boys and all the teams of Open Road Motorsports thanks for all you support.

See you next year

Paul

Good to hear from you Paul!

I've been mulling over the handicap system of late, and I think the big difference between the Modern and Classic cars is simply development. Not just the development of an individual car - although every racer knows how important it is, almost no car is competitive right out of the box - but the benefit of the decades of development of a platform. Take Paul's Mk1 Escort for example. Had that car been built in 1968, it would be nowhere near as quick as it is today. There's been a huge amount of knowledge gained from racing those things almost constantly for 40 years in engine output, shell preparation and overall setup. The same goes for the 911, of course, and the longevity of that platform has made all sorts of bolt-on retrofitted upgrades possible. Because of this, the sweet spot for a Modern car might actually be a car that's a few years old.

It's probably worth pointing out that Open Road Motorsports, Glen Clarke's company, supported 6 teams in the Targa this year. Four of those six ended up in the top 10: Glen's 911, Roy's 2002, Paul's Escort and Stan's M3. Not a bad record at all.

NGTD, I'm pretty sure the car ACP was racing last year was a factory Mitsubishi and not his own. I'm not 100% sure, but I do know his current car is sporting different livery. The schedule this year certainly made it difficult for him to attend (he won Rally Colorado instead) and Mitsubishi didn't enter at all - probably due to budget cuts.

Even if they don't win, the manufacturers can get a lot of publicity out of simply taking part. Dodge knows this, how much attention did that giant green Challenger get? I swear it showed up in every car magazine on the planet and was at SEMA. And who can tell me where it placed?

Keith wrote: NGTD, I'm pretty sure the car ACP was racing last year was a factory Mitsubishi and not his own. I'm not 100% sure, but I do know his current car is sporting different livery. The schedule this year certainly made it difficult for him to attend (he won Rally Colorado instead) and Mitsubishi didn't enter at all - probably due to budget cuts.

I am pretty sure that car became the one he runs in Canada - Evo X. The car he runs in the U.S. is an Evo IX and is in complete different livery. They worked out some deal where he is developing the car in cooperation withe the University of Windsor Mechanical Engineering students.

BTW Jim Kenzie wrote about Targa and he thinks the rules need to change too:

http://www.wheels.ca/reviews/article/782080

Interesting. I've got a lot of respect for what Jim has to say - as he pointed out, he's a past division winner and has been around since the beginning. He's saying much the same thing that I did in my last post: the fastest vintage cars aren't necessarily vintage, but show the results of decades of development. Of course, the logical conclusion to this would be that they don't need the same handicapping. Maybe there are more purpose-built Targa cars showing up that take advantage of the rules and this is changing the required handicapping.

I still think that you can't simply hand an automatic victory to a high-profile first-time effort. Experience counts for a lot, and I don't remember this kind of fuss when ACP came in third last year. But Jim's a neutral third party who was both at the event this year and has the background needed to form a good opinion.

As I mentioned earlier, the rules are in place for a four-year period and 2010 marks the introduction of a new rule set. It'll be evolutionary instead of revolutionary, but it probably won't be surprising to see a shift in the handicapping and/or the allowable modifications for various classes. I would be amazed to see the handicapping system removed completely though.

I've read several comments that the classic cars require a great deal more maintenance during an event like the Targa. Is this because of all the extra years and miles on these cars, or are modern cars just much more reliable and durable than their forebears? Or, is it a combination of the two?

Michael

The event is hard on cars. Some of the roads are very rough (usually the ones you're trying to go as fast as possible on) and the days are long. Since most vintage cars tend to be higher-maintenance to begin with, they take more work. There's no need to babysit a distributorless ignition system, for example. Nor do you need to grease the chassis or the like. I can run my Miata in a frog-strangler rainstorm without concerns about the electrics, but my classic Mini will stall and coast to a stop because of the insufficient waterproofing of the distributor.

It's my belief that modern cars are also more durable and more solidly built. CAD and FEA helps ensure weak points in the chassis are minimized. And, of course, these shells and many of the parts in them could easily have 40 years of use on them already. My Miata chassis had 200,000 miles on it but there was no sign of any damage from all that.

Of course, there's going to be an exception to that rule, and that's going to be the freshly-built vintage car with full rally prep. If your model has been through the Safari, then it's fair to say that you can build it to survive some spectacular abuse.

I've never run a vintage car in the event, though. We've got a number of other Targa competitors paying at least some attention to this discussion, hopefully one of them will chime in.

Hey Keith,

Jud here, car 401 from Targa 2002 to Targa 2009. Thanks for taking the time to post a 'play by play' of the Targa NL event complete with photos. It was great to see. Also great to hear opinions from other competitors.

I do recall passing your Miatia on the Gooseberry Cove stage in 2008. We were pushing extremely hard as our understanding of the stage was that it tightened up for the last 3 or 4 kms and we didn't want to get caught out. I think we ended up going over the finish line nose to tail. Sorry if you lost your hearing to our side exhaust !

I've been reading the comments with interest and have been getting a real chuckle out of most them. As has been pointed out, it takes much more than the fastest car in the class or category to win Targa overall. As in any form of competition there are always lots of reasons for not winning. It's unfortunate that some seem to focus purely on the Classic vs. Modern debate.

I must tell you that on day 5 I sure wished I had AWD, traction control, ABS, and street tires. A decent defroster and weather stripping that actually kept the water out would have been bonus.

Back to the Classic vs. Modern deate. Recent Targa NL events show some great battles between the two categories. In 2006 a Z06 Corvette of Mark Swain battled for the lead with Keith Townsend in an 2006 STi. A few stages from the end on the final day both teams made 'in-car' errors and turned the win over to a Classic car. In 2008 an EVO X was killing everyone when a clutch problem on the Marystown stage cost the team almost 20 seconds. They finished the event in third place within 20 seconds of the winner. It is interesting to note, that both the Corvette and the EVO X were not running sticky motorsport tires either. In all these three cases the Modern Category driver was a Targa NL rookie.

As I look back over the 8 Targa NL events that I've run and lost, I can say that a better team of car, driver, co-driver, and/or preparation has beaten our team. I went into all these events clearly understanding the rules, respecting my competition, did the best I could, tryed to keep my ego in check, accepted my errors, and congratulated the winners. Along the way I sure had a lot of fun and met some of the greatest people in the world.

Part of my attraction to Targa is it's an event where privateer first time competitors can compete with well sponsored and factory supported teams ... and everything in-between ... classic and modern ... and be scored and measured together. When it's all over we share stories and laugh about our mistakes ... be them driving, co-driving, or having chosen the wrong XYZ for our cars.

When I don't win, and I never have :) , I try to learn something from my experience to help me do better the next time. I'm a privateer, my team is a group of my best friends, including my wife. I have a few small sponsors who have supported us for many years and for which I'm very thankful.

I'm accountable only to myself and to my team mates. I don't have any corporate executives, advertisers, or an audience of readers I need to impress.

Tach it up !

Jud

Jud,

Nice to see you here! I followed the Targa closely in 2008 and 2009 (mostly through Keith Tanner's Targa Miata blog and his posts here), and your car stood out as one of my favorites. Plus, it's clear from your finishing positions that you don't wast any time completing the stages. Good job.

Thanks for your insightful post. As one of the most experienced Targa veterans, you have a more informed perspective on the handicapping system than probably anyone else in this thread. It sounds like modern cars have been in the hunt over the years. I'd like to see one win sometime soon, just to know its possible.

I hope to compete in the Targa in the next few years, though I suspect "compete" is a generous and unrealistic word to use. I'm sure, if I make it to the Rock I'll see you there.

Michael

Jud - I remember you passing very well You'd warned me ahead of time to watch my mirrors, and it was a great demonstration of how much harder you were working. Never mind the horsepower (we were flat out when you went by, and it was as if I had the parking brake on), but just the way the car was moving around on the road. Seeing the level of commitment under braking was great to see.

We did end up coming across the finish about 3 seconds apart, but since you'd started behind me you were 30 seconds faster over the stage. I had lost about 10 seconds due to missing a turn earlier on. I still wonder if you would have caught me if I hadn't missed that. Probably, but I might just have been able to get back in front as we got into town. Would have made for one hell of a finish.

For those who want to see, Jud goes by at about 10:50 in the in-car video. Jud was driving a lot faster than he really had to to meet his time, but I suspect he was having fun.

http://targamiata.com/video.php?UID=29&google=1

To put this stage in perspective of our discussion of base time: I just barely missed my base time (8 seconds late, curse that mistake of mine!) so this is how fast you are expected to drive an 8 Modified Small car. A class 9 car like the GTR would have to be 3.25% faster, which means about 27 seconds on this 14+ minute stage. The 2002 (who finished this stage in the exact same time I did, likely without any errors) had a base time approximately 1 minute slower than mine. In 2008, the fastest car (the big green Challenger) had an average speed of 136 kmh, the only car to go over the maximum average that was imposed in 2009 - at least, on this stage. About half the field finished this stage without penalties in 2008.

Jud, thanks for the perspective from a long-time Targa competitor! I'm amazed at how many teams from this year's race have popped in with their comments.

In reply to Keith:

Keith,

Cool video ... I sure like the sound of the high reving twin cam sounds great. I'll bet passing that 911 sent shivers up your spine :)

One of things to reminder about the Targa NL is the importance of the co-driver. I wouldn't trade mine for anyone else. Jim has been to Targa 8 times as well. In fact I met him at Targa NL when he was shooting photos for our charity ' Show Kids You Care'. Jim and I connected right away and he began wrenching on my car that night.

For the next three years Jim was my Crew Chief. He's seen Targa NL from a perspective that very few drivers or co-drivers have. After my first co-driver decided he'd had enough - after earning a Gold Targa Plate or was it my 'use all the road' attitude - Jim stepped up to co-drive.

Jim had all the elements a great co-driver needs plus the bonus that he didn't have an relearning to do as a result of any previous co-driving. With the help of several top notch co-driver friends Jim learned the craft. He has been brilliant in and out of the car. He never tells me how to drive and I never tell him how to co-drive. In 2008 after three Targa NL's Jim earned a Gold Targa Plate as well.

Co-drivers are easily the unsung heros of Targa NL. I can not stress enough the value they bring. I trust my life with the information Jim gives me. It's much more that reading the simple text that's in the route book and starting the rally computer at the start of the stage. A great co-driver uses all the tools at his disposal: maps, google earth, the gps, sight, etc and knows how to give this information to driver simply and at the correct moment. He also works with the crew chief on schedulling where, when and what to service; what's on the notice board; where and when we need to be at stages, car shows, and meetings; helps keep the driver focused; bails the water out of the car; buys ice to keep the beer cold; and above all never complains or screams no matter how sideways the driver gets the car or who's front lawn I end up driving over.

Take a moment and look at the top three co-drivers for the past eight Targa NL's - everyone of them has the same or more experience than the driver. Many of them are well accomplished drivers too. I'm of the opinion that having a co-driver with lots of a competitive driving experience can be a real bonus too.

Thanks again Keith for being the ace reporter on Targa NL this year.

Jud

In reply to skeeler:

Michael,

Thanks for your compliment.

As my co-driver always says "use all the road, that's what it's there for". I originally built my car as a street machine back in the 90's. I called it 'street prepared' as I come from an autocross and Solo I background. I used the car for Solo I, Solo II and fun lapping days with my hot rod friends.

When Targa NL came along I wrote the first cheque and started rebuilding my car to suit the new challenge. My goal has always been the same - build it to win and drive it win. I have no real interest in crashing the thing or injuring my co-driver, but I do understand the risks.

If I hadn't built the Acadian I think I probably would have built a SS spec STi. Keith Townsend proved it to be a great combination with his extrodinary 3rd Overall finish in 2006 - I beat him by only 2 seconds. Now that I think about it, he had a rookie co-driver that he trained for the event. That same co-driver co-drove for ACP in 2008 when he too finished 3rd Overall after suffering equipment problems. ACP raced an EVO X GSR. I think the much better choice would have been the EVO X MR.

If I return to Targa NL Michael I look forward to seeing you.

Jud

Jud mentioned how a good co-driver will use GPS. The Targa pace notes will only mention a corner if it's important to navigation or out of character. On a stage like Gooseberry, there may not be any instructions for a kilometer or more. There was one stage in 2008 that didn't have any instructions at all. This led to one of our funnier problems in the race, when Janel would pop back in after a couple of km of silence with "six hundred..." and she would startle me. Anyhow...

So the instructions only have the out-of-character turns. Normal twisty bits, with or without surface damage as seen in Gooseberry, aren't mentioned. So the more experienced teams like Jud and Jim will also run a GPS that shows the road ahead, allowing the codriver to glean a bit more detail on what's coming and pass that along to the driver. The stages also come with street maps, and on a stage like Gander or Fortune the codriver can sometimes pick up enough information from studying them to amend the notes a bit. Particularly in Gander, as there are a lot of crescents. All the stages are published in Google Earth format for very close study - and if you're lucky enough to live in Newfoundland, possibly a certain amount of reconnaissance?

If you've never driven fast with a codriver, it's an intoxicating experience. I called Janel my "guardian angel" as she would tell me everything I needed to know. Coming up to a blind crest with my foot to the floor, she'd tell me the road eased right and there was gravel on the inside. There's absolutely no way you could travel anywhere near this fast on these roads driving solo, and you have to have complete trust in your navigator. I think I mentioned earlier that there were a couple of times when previous cars had torn the tape marking the stage down, and it was blowing across the stage. Janel told me where to go, so I ignored the tape and went there. She was right every single time. Off the stages, she was omniscient, knowing exactly how long until we could pee or get gas.

Jud, I'm glad you built the Acadian instead of an STi. It's just so cool.