mad_machine wrote: the problem I see with the AWIC in your case is your intended usage. Big Diesel doing big towing. That means a LOT of time underboost.
Would you suggest air/air instead?
mad_machine wrote: the problem I see with the AWIC in your case is your intended usage. Big Diesel doing big towing. That means a LOT of time underboost.
Would you suggest air/air instead?
Xceler8x wrote: Found a water/air intercooler install link for ya.
Good find... thanks.
curtis73 wrote:mad_machine wrote: the problem I see with the AWIC in your case is your intended usage. Big Diesel doing big towing. That means a LOT of time underboost.Would you suggest air/air instead?
Not at all. You are just going to have to plan for heatsoak. Air to Air intercoolers heatsoak faster, but shed the heat faster.. air to water can take longer to rid itself of excess heat.. but takes longer to get to that point.
If you read though what I thought about it.. a slender and wide radiator should fit between the grill and the condensor (I have not looked in the nose of a newer van.. but remember the older E350s) that should give you enough cooling and reserve to handle all but boosting up the side of a mountain with a heavy load.
heat soak on a big diesel sucks. I remember going through Pittsburg pa with a heavy load of rigging.. I was in third gear and on the shoulder climbing up out of that city going west... after the IC heatsoaked.. I just did not have the power to climb AND stay with traffic
Ok, good tech. I have a couple A/C condensers sitting around. I'll do some BTU calculations and see what I come up with. It may also be possible to fit a couple gallons of water in a reservoir inline with the system for more reserve soaking.
Air/air is so simple, but hundreds of guys have tried and failed on these E-vans. They either ended up spending tons of money on a custom IC or adapted an existing one that ended up being too small or too restrictive.
I'm half tempted to make a custom scooped hood and just lay an air/air cooler across the opening.
top mount like a suby? That would be interesting. Would have to be bigger than a subaru intercooler though.
Not that it matters with a diesel.. but one of the other advantages of an air to water nobody mentioned.. shorter plumbing and a more direct path from turbo to engine.
Anyone have tips on selecting sizes, flow rates, or anything?
mad_machine wrote: top mount like a suby? That would be interesting.
yup. It would be ugly, but effective.
ugly maybe.. but efficent and functional. You could probably make it not too bad looking. The front of a van is pretty flat.. so getting a lot of air into that hood should not be hard
have you looked or thought about either propane or water/alky injection? removes packaging issues... easy enough to carry around a spare jug of alky solution (or if you go ghetto the blue windsheild stuff at the gas station)
curtis73 wrote: Ok, good tech. I have a couple A/C condensers sitting around. I'll do some BTU calculations and see what I come up with. It may also be possible to fit a couple gallons of water in a reservoir inline with the system for more reserve soaking. Air/air is so simple, but hundreds of guys have tried and failed on these E-vans. They either ended up spending tons of money on a custom IC or adapted an existing one that ended up being too small or too restrictive. I'm half tempted to make a custom scooped hood and just lay an air/air cooler across the opening.
I have no idea if you have owned a van, or if this applies, but my 77 chevy 350 4 bbl 3/4 ton van made loads of heat on loaded on climbs. I put modern heat shielding on the inside of the cowel but the added timing and uncorked intake and exhaust just made for more fuel eating capacity and thusly more heat. It really baked the cab. A big turbo charged diesel with a hood mounted inter cooler dumping loads more heat into the engine bay makes me sweat from here, never mind all the other stuff crammed under there crying out for mercy. And I reckon you wont be going 80 loaded up hills so it's not like there will be a whole lot of air to do all that work. One of the cool things about the air to water inter-cooler is you can move the radiator part of the set up off too one side or the other and dump all that heat somewhere far away from you and the engine bay. The water lines to and from the intake heat exchanger can be insulated and shielded to mitigate the heat soak issue and still occupying much less volume than any air to air intercooling plumbing as well as being more flexible in terms of routing. You get a system that helps under-hood temps instead of piling on to them so you are solving for a smaller problem.
donalson wrote: have you looked or thought about either propane or water/alky injection? removes packaging issues... easy enough to carry around a spare jug of alky solution (or if you go ghetto the blue windsheild stuff at the gas station)
Yes I have, but I'm one of those "get in and drive" designers. Its a perfectly viable option, I just can't stand the idea of refilling, or the inconvenience of that time that I forget the extra case of alky while towing in the middle of nowhere and I have to limp 20k lbs worth of van and trailer across the desert with a light foot. I'm a set-it-and-forget-it kinda guy.
I've owned a couple powerstrokes before without intercoolers (94-97 pickups) and quite honestly just put my foot down on a stock tune with 10k behind me. I never had a pyro to monitor EGTs and never cooked a turbo... but now that I'm smarter and now that I know what actually goes on in there, I want a buffer. I think I'll be able to abuse this van pretty hard without an IC, but why risk it, right?
Shaun wrote: I have no idea if you have owned a van, or if this applies,
I've not owned one other than a motorhome, but used a few hundred it seems in fleet applications. The doghouses do tend to get pretty warm, but not shoe-melting temps like my old 86 Ford motorhome with a 460. That thing would make my leg hairs curl up. It was very effective at turning my diet coke into coke soup in the cupholder 
Nevertheless... you make an excellent argument for the A/W IC and it makes lots of sense.
mad_machine wrote: ugly maybe.. but efficent and functional. You could probably make it not too bad looking. The front of a van is pretty flat.. so getting a lot of air into that hood should not be hard
My main concern is the shape of an A/A IC under the hood... if I make it long and skinny (inlet on one side, outlet on the other) with 6-8 tubes, I'll have considerable pressure drop. If I make it a type 3 with the tanks on the long ends, I give up almost no pressure, but it will only have about 4" of core to pass through and I won't get much temperature drop. I could run two smaller air/air ICs on the left and right, but that adds considerable complexity, plus a lot more heat soak potential with the crossover tube.
At any rate, we're kinda at a stand still until I actually get the van here. I'm picking it up tomorrow (schedule permitting) so I'll have to just look and see what kind of space I have.
Conquest351 wrote:
OMG. I totally did his voice in my head.
In reply to curtis73:
talk to VANDEEZIL @powerstroke.org. that setup works awesome for heavy towing and fun without heat soak probs cost about 1600.00 install time about a week, now has 12000 miles on working perfect. system has to be correctly sized and it will work.
curtis73 wrote:Conquest351 wrote:OMG. I totally did his voice in my head.
Me too. I feel violated. 
Heres a small air to air for $70! SPECIFICATIONS Air Flow 276 cfm Heat Rejection 626 btu/min Internal Pressure Drop 0.43" psi Ports 2-1/2" hose-barb Size 32-1/4" x 11-1/2" x 10" Actual wt 23 lbs. Shpg. 36 lbs.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=28-1761&catname=engines
Hey Curtis. I saw something today that reminded me of this discussion. While doing some work on my company truck which is a GMC heavy duty diesel van, I noticed that it has a huge oil cooler under the body inside the frame rail, inbetween the frame and trans. I dont know how much room Fords have in that area, but the GMC had tons of room. I could see either an air/air or liquid/air I/C set up fitting down there with room to spare, just ad some protective shields and a puller fan to keep the air moving.
In all honesty, whichever way you choose is less relevant than having it sized properly to the application. Particularly if you're talking a long time with high heat loads. Your situation will be less about hitting the lowest temperature, but more about shedding the most heat over time.
If you're thinking you might be seeing little airflow, or high loads at low speeds (climbing hills in a heavy van), you might want to consider something with a lot of surface area and electric fans.
Don't rule out adding a dedicated oil cooler too, if not already equipped.
-Hans
6-yr old thread alert.
Heat-soak can be a thing. Say you're going up a long hill. Air-to-water intercooler systems can have a problem where when enough heat is added for long enough, the entire system gets hot enough that the little radiator up front can't keep up with dissipating the intercooler's heat. In that case the ECU will (hopefully) dial back boost until it all cools down. Another situation is a turbo sports car on-track. Much like the big hill, the intercooler system will just keep getting hotter and hotter, and an astute foe will ride you until you have to back off. The point is that air-to-water setups have a few issues to be aware of. "Most of the time" it'll be fine because the engine isn't under heavy boost long enough to become an issue. The solution is using really big radiator, but the reality is that there typically isn't enough room for one.
Oh hey, I made one of these in school! Anyone remember the Wreck Racing turbo 2JZ MG Midget? It had a "one shot" A2W intercooler. One-shot meaning you fill the tank with ice water, make your autocross or drag run, drain it with a petcock valve, and fill it back up again. It produced some insanely low IAT's for a boosted car. Like under 70F at 12 psi. No joke. But once the ice melts you grenade the engine. I even did some science on it.
It's made from craigslist-source A2A cooler for an SR20. I welded a tank around it, converting it into A2W. A lid and drain valve, voila! One-shot ice water intercooler.
Ice cold, yo!
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