Teach Me: Driving RWD

As someone who's driven a Corvair in anger, I can speak to the whole RWD/RE experience. (A 911 is simply a German Corvair, after all.) Possibly the most important thing I learned when driving that car is to not lift. No, seriously, never. Even when you've gone and overcooked it into a corner, the worst thing you can do is to lift, or even worse, brake. It picks all that rear weight up off the ground, increasing the CG in the back, and pretty soon you'll have a vivid picture of what used to be in your rearview mirror. If you're unfortunate enough to have a vehicle that throws swing axles into the mix, you could also well be looking that rearview mirror picture upside down.

The whole "do not lift, ever" thing will really mess with your mind, your sense of self preservation, and all that you've held dear and true up to now in your life. It will be difficult to overcome the natural tendency to lift when things get squirrelly. It will take time to "train" your brain to think this way in an emergency situation when you're driving by instinct.

Stay on the throttle. Brake in a straight line only. Power through the turn. Do not lift. And always be prepared, as Doc Hudson says, if you wanna go left, sometimes you gotta turn right.

I recommend practice in an MR2. (Then again that's my answer to everything.)

mazdeuce wrote: 90, it's a 964 so I've got coilovers in back and struts up front.

FTFY

Gotcha, basicly what everyone has already said applies. The newer ones are much more "civilized" and such.

Chris_V wrote: Wow. I've got to drive a later 911, as what you're describing is the polar opposite of my early 911s, which begged to be driven like a FWD car: trailbrake to get it to rotate to the angle you wanted it, then back on the throttle to keep it there. Sounds like the later cars they dialed all the lift throttle oversteer out of it to keep it "safer" for the doctors that were buying them...

Porsche is/was an engineering firm first and an automaker second.

I always figured that the 911 was their attempt to show off their engineering prowess. "We can win races with a car that is 100% wrong from a basic figures standpoint!"

They did basically invent the field of kinematics, after all.

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Possibly the most important thing I learned when driving that car is to not lift. No, seriously, never. Even when you've gone and overcooked it into a corner, the worst thing you can do is to lift, or even worse, brake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_1KP24T-A

It picks all that rear weight up off the ground, increasing the CG in the back, and pretty soon you'll have a vivid picture of what used to be in your rearview mirror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=476PjYvNxNg

Understand that with a 911, you have several different handling issues going on in a corner. You cant trailbrake. You cant coast into a corner. You either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle to control the weight shift. Lifting once you commit to the corner will cause lift throttle oversteer as the rear steps out; applying too much throttle once you commit to the corner will cause throttle understeer as the traction of the rear tires picks up the front end of the car. Slow in and fast out is the only way to think about it unless you have the reactions of Senna. Factor also into the equation the slow manual steering of 911. Now go and try to forget everything that you thought you knew about driving and go fast in a 911. YMMV

I had 911's early in my life ie before club racing and after years of racing miata, I have now come back to 911's. It is a totally different driving experience and all the things that I learned in 20+ years dont apply other than being sensitive and listening to my rear end(the one in the seat). Still I am enjoying the 911 because it is such a challenge compared to the "anyone can drive fast" miata.

Actually the MR-2 experience is very similar. My first experience with throttle understeer was driving off the road while powering off the apex in my MR-2 SC after the pulley was swapped.
A friend of mine asked me for handling advice with his SC miata that was understeering in sweepers and after a few minutes, I realized that he was experiencing the same thing. Yep, he was lifting the front tires so much that there wasnt enough contact to turn. Very powerful miata!

One of my favorite Jeremy Clarkson quotes: as he is discussing Porsches with a guest, he turns and addresses the audience "Has anyone driven a 911 to the studio tonight?" After several seconds of silence he replys "See, they've all been killed!"

I've never driven a 911, so thats really all I can add to this discussion. The whole "Never Lift" driving style sounds completely counterintuitive, I'm sure that I would crash quickly and often.

From my GT5 experience (that odviosuly means I'm an expert, not), I find that overlapping the brake and the throttle can get you out of just about anything in a RWD car. For example, you lift in a corner and the rear end snaps around. In addition to counter steering, put both feet in (gas and brake, not brake and clutch) and voilà. It is basically like being able to use only the front brakes.

Mmadness wrote: From my GT5 experience (that odviosuly means I'm an expert, not), I find that overlapping the brake and the throttle can get you out of just about anything in a RWD car. For example, you lift in a corner and the rear end snaps around. In addition to counter steering, put both feet in (gas and brake, not brake and clutch) and voilà. It is basically like being able to use only the front brakes.

This seems wrong, this should take the car from oversteer to spinning out and facing the wrong way.

whenry wrote: Understand that with a 911, you have several different handling issues going on in a corner. You cant trailbrake. You cant coast into a corner. You either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle to control the weight shift. Lifting once you commit to the corner will cause lift throttle oversteer as the rear steps out; applying too much throttle once you commit to the corner will cause throttle understeer as the traction of the rear tires picks up the front end of the car. Slow in and fast out is the only way to think about it unless you have the reactions of Senna. Factor also into the equation the slow manual steering of 911. Now go and try to forget everything that you thought you knew about driving and go fast in a 911. YMMV I had 911's early in my life ie before club racing and after years of racing miata, I have now come back to 911's. It is a totally different driving experience and all the things that I learned in 20+ years dont apply other than being sensitive and listening to my rear end(the one in the seat). Still I am enjoying the 911 because it is such a challenge compared to the "anyone can drive fast" miata.

Thanks for this. It really helps me to have a written description of what the hell is happening. I can feel both ends of the car and what they're trying to do, but being able to deal with that intellectually is not terribly easy.

practice, practice, practice, practice,practice...

I've been reading this thread with great interest, since I'm pretty nervous about my fiat that's Rear engine/rwd. But the more I read, the more I realize i don't know what the heck you are talking about.

I'm good at physics, but bad at the terminology.. I'm going to try to walk through what I understood the issues are, and you guys tell me where I mess it up.

In general, a rear engine car will want to understeer because you don't have much weight on the front tires, so they wind up plowing.

Coming into a corner, you want to get all your breaking done in a straight line. The worst thing you want thing you want to do is come in to hot, where you are understeering, and have to apply more brake, because you continue to transfer weight to the front tires, and you can go from understeer to snap oversteer - and wind up facing the wrong way.

I DON"T understand the don't lift. First, I'm assuming you mean don't get off the throttle? are you saying, break in a straight line, then get back on the gas to balance the car, and make sure you don't let off the gas? This seems weird to me because wouldn't this unload the front tires, making the understeer worse? Is this because you are supposed to brake so much (overbrake) that you can get back on the gas, but still be at the propper turn speed? I get the "don't brake once you are turning" but the don't lift side of things has me baffled.

Somebody is going to say this better than me, but I'll try. First you need to break a corner into three parts, turn in, the middle, and exit. Then you realize that all cars have the same range of behaviors, under steer/over steer, just to greater or lesser degrees. Then you need to realize that the transition between one state and another happens at different speeds in different cars due to where the weight is and how it moves and how fast the car is going and a bunch of other stuff. Then you need to understand that it's you, the driver, who has to try and make this all work by gauging entry speed right, managing weight shift, and correcting for when you screw upl which you'll do to some degree every corner.
Think about this: pretty much every car will under steer on corner entry. Normal passenger cars will do it under a wide range of conditions and pretty much all of my FWD driving is trying to manage this. Even great RWD cars will do it too if you're going fast enough and trying to turn under braking. It's a continiuim and you need to figure out where you are on it, how to set up your car to change it, and how to drive around it.
Then you have the middle of the corner and lift oversteer and different cars and the fact that how you entered the corner will have an effect on all of it. The fact that we're not all dead is staggering. The important thing to remember though is that it's all a continuum and how you drive and how your car is setup can have a huge effect on it.
Read a lot. Draw pictures. Imagine very exaggerated weight shifts. Then go try it in a safe place. Head to an autocross with a long sweeper, and even knowing it will hurt your time, lift. You only need to do it once or twice to cement the feeling in your brain.

And I didn't answer your question. Don't lift. When you find yourself too fast in the middle of a corner you generally feel it because the car starts to under steer, or push, toward the outside. If you lift then the weight shifts forward, the front grabs, the rear unweights and then snaps around. I've even done it in a FWD car several times. It's very hard to realize that you're going too fast in a corner and not try to slow down. You just need to ride it out and let the car scrub speed by sliding a bit and hopefully be able to unwind the curve further down the road.

Lifting means engine braking, engine braking transfers weight off the heavy ass. Know how a FWD with a lot of roll resistance in the rear will rotate with just a stab of the brake or less in some situations? Same deal, with a few hundred extra lbs in the trunk.

No time to 'splain, but just chew on this:

No matter what the car is doing weight-transfer wise, the mass balance will never change.

Thus the analogy involving swinging a hammer.

This video is worth watching. Listen carefully to how he uses the throttle, and how lifting influences the car's behaviour.

911 autox video in the wet

To add to everyone else - front engined car with RWD, you can get loose and lift off the throttle, it should come back in line. With a rear engined car with RWD, you need to push down harder on the acclerator when it gets loose. Ignore that screaming in your brain to lift, the oversteer will only get much worse. It's pretty cool once you get used to that. I suggest a nice open parking lot.

or Just read "Going Fast" and all those books...you know, all the ones where you have to omit/ammend stuff if you want to drive a turbo FWD car fast.

I'd replace "don't lift" with "learn how to modulate."

You already know how to drive. Just get out there and do it!!! You'll figure it out.

Knurled wrote:

volvoclearinghouse wrote: Possibly the most important thing I learned when driving that car is to not lift. No, seriously, never. Even when you've gone and overcooked it into a corner, the worst thing you can do is to lift, or even worse, brake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_1KP24T-A

It picks all that rear weight up off the ground, increasing the CG in the back, and pretty soon you'll have a vivid picture of what used to be in your rearview mirror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=476PjYvNxNg

I was thinking about that 1st video when i saw this thread but i didnt know how to find it. I saved it to my computer this time.

I read the thread subject and my immediate reaction was just... blink... blink..

Good for you on the 964! Fun cars and no torsion bars, so the learning curve is not as steep.

Just remember that when in doubt, plant your foot on the gas! Lifting during cornering is a very deliberate steering technique in a 911. Look for some videos at turn 5 st Road America. You'll see all the 911s do this little move where they sort of wiggle their hips to the right to shift weight for the turn. You do that with the throttle, not the steering wheel. I will search my archives for some of mine.

On torsion bar 911s the thing to remember: The car is actively trying to kill you.

ncjay wrote: To add to everyone else - front engined car with RWD, you can get loose and lift off the throttle, it should come back in line.

Only if your "getting loose" is because you're doing a burnout. Every RWD that I've driven would tighten the line with lift throttle. No matter which end of the car is being driven, this basic rule exists. (And one reason why RX-7s can be so interesting to drive, they basically have no engine braking, so you have to be very deliberate to the point of hamfistedness)

Wish I could find the video, it's an old school drifting video in your typical underpowered Corolla and it clearly showed him initiating oversteer with braking and lift-throttle, and acceleration to gather the rearend back up, playing the weight transfer like a musical instrument.

You have to learn how to hold the car on the throttle. In other words, throttle modulation around the corner so that you accelerate to the limit of the tires but not to the point that the car begins to slip around. Just part of the art of driving.
Spec Racers ie Sports Renaults also use this technique to turn the car in tight corners.