Duke said:That's the kind of awesome details I was looking for. Thank you.
Can anybody confirm that the C-Max 'transmission' is set up the same way as the Prius? That would make me feel a lot better.
Based on this article, it is the same set up, but it is a Ford designed transmission. No idea if they did anything that made it better or worse, but at least it operates on the same basic principles as the Prius
In reply to eastsideTim :
Fantastic, thank you very much.
I just wish the CMAX had the sliding doors it does in the rest of the world.
I just wish the Prius V had sliding doors.
First gen Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Good fuel economy. Useful size. Faster than anyone expects. Can tow.
I've had one for five years now. Utterly faultless. Upgraded from a Prius.
Damn, not much to add here since i'm late. I guess one thing i bring is that i've actually driven most of the cars mentioned.
Prius - Gold standard. Space efficient, comfortable, reliable, excellent mpg.
Cmax - Punchier/faster, more normal, not really more space.
Volt - punchier/faster, better handling, not really more space.
ct200h - everything good about a Prius with massively better styling inside/out, but less space and same-at-best mpg. My biggest gripe with the ct200h is that it's underpowered compared to its own exterior styling. Some may not care. Nicest interior by TWO miles.
Prius v - bigger prius. They didnt put the 3rd row seats in it in USA which sort of kneecaps its usability advantage (but theyd be tiny anyway), but it definitely has more cargo space. Regular prius has a perfectly fine 2nd row so unless you need that sheer interior volume for cargo carrying i dont find it compelling over a regular prius. Lower mpg..
Couple things i'll add..
Hs250h. Hard to find but if you like the interior and can deal with the lowish mpg (~35?) it's a neat option. Nice interior in a decent-sized but still small car. It uses the 1g Camry Hybrid drivetrain in a smaller car so it's not quite as slow as some others.
But what i really came here to say is why not Camry Hybrid? Like this. I really like these cars. They aren't slow at all and get 40mpg and are a modern midsize sedan in every other way, which to me is great. I happen to like the way they look inside and out as well!
In reply to Vigo :
I think she'd prefer the 5-door layout (no need for a 3rd row, but she likes to be able to haul stuff on occasion). Your link post was deleted, but was it something like this?
Duke said:In reply to Woody :
I was too, until I read some reviews of it. I admit to having never driven one, but I was spectacularly unimpressed by its poorer cousin, the Corolla iM. I also suspect the Lexus is over budget.
Don't go by the reviews. Go test drive a CT200h for yourself. I have one and I have read every review on them and it seems to me like they were driving a different car. All the reviewers hate the engine sound at high rpms which I agree is a very cow like "moooooooo". Thing is I am not at full rpm much, maybe if you do a lot of freeway merges it would be an issue. I have an F Sport and it handles very well and is only let down by lack of power over 30 mph. Under 30 mph it is as quick as it needs to be. The reviewers are expecting a Lexus IS performance or maybe an ES level of luxury, the CT200 falls short on both those measures. What it really is is a much improved Prius for people who like to drive and appreciate looks over all out economy. There is a lot more sound proofing, chassis stiffening and suspension capability vs. a Prius that is not apparently until you drive one or do the research.
So far zero repairs in almost 4 years. Batteries can be had from aftermarket places for under $2k if you should ever need one. A California courier has one with 360k miles, had one repair under $100 and just put brakes on at 335k miles.
The car is smooth and quiet and has a good stereo and nice looks inside and out. The hatch is useful, but the battery does eat into the space.
The Prius is fugly (sorry) and handles terribly, but does get better FE and often comes with nice things like radar cruise control. If you think you may want one test a CT before you commit.
My other consideration would be a Volt if you can plug it in with a 220V charger. Really good car and will definitely save on gas.
Don't discount the Hyundai Ioniq but it is very new and will still be above the buy in at this early stage.
In reply to Duke :
Yes, and i fixed the link pretty quickly, im surprised you even saw it broken! Whoops.
I've put about 8k miles on each of the c-max and escape hybrids we have at work and I prefer the c-max in every way. Midwest highway mileage for me has been closer to 30 than 40, with about 36 for my best tank ever.
I took the brand new Hyundai small hybrid (Ioniq?) for a drive a couple months back and for the difference in price between one of them new and a used c-max in your range I'd be scrounging the couch cushions for the difference and getting the new car. I haven't driven the Kia version (Nero?) yet but both will be in the running for my next commuter.
Vigo said:But what i really came here to say is why not Camry Hybrid?
Excerpt from my previous comments on the Camry Hybrid service loaner I had for a week:
...attempting to drive in anything even slightly resembling an enthusiastic manner resulted in it turning into a soul-sucking steaming pile of excrement. The handling on our 2010 RAV4 Sport is lightyears ahead of that Camry Hybrid.
That thing would unexpectedly (and terminally) understeer even when 'driving Miss Daisy' if it was even the slightest bit damp out. And woe unto (s)he who so much as breathed on the throttle in a turn. I don't think I would have been surprised if it somehow managed to understeer while parked.
^Don't judge that by a single car. I've had a rental before that had a terrible alignment for whatever reason that had exactly the behavior you describe.
I've driven plenty of Camrys that make a fine appliance. They understeer, but A) only when going faster than you should be on the street and B) its easily corrected to 'tolerable' (meaning same as other mid-size cars or better) with a few tweaks.
They are smooth, quiet, comfortable places to spend time. IMO the downisde is that the Prius cargo area is more versatile.
If she likes driving and likes to autox, even for just a daily commuter, RUN, RUN from the Prius. I've owned over 80 cars and a '10 Prius had to be one of the worst handling cars I've ever owned. It was wonderful at slogging through rush hour highway traffic in quiet comfort, I'll give it credit there. But if the road took any kind of a twist or turn, it lost all composure. Sloppy, uncontrolled, no feedback, utterly horrid. Even my wife drove it and said "This thing is awful, I don't want to drive it". As much as I respected it for excelling at its' intended mission, the driving experience was so terrible that I can't ever see myself having another one.
Interesting. I've only owned ~20 cars and a few bikes. I though our Prius ('03) was a perfect commuter. It was no worse in any twisty turny stuff than most other cheap appliance cars from the factory. I very much enjoyed the gameification of MPG. Trying to crack 60, 70, or even 80mpg on the way to work was an interesting challenge.
The car was my wife's DD. It was infinitely more enjoyable to drive than the vehicles that followed it, a Saturn VUE (manual) and a Honda Odyssey.
My parents have a '13 Prius, I think. I had an occasion to huck it around back roads in rural VA once - it never made me feel unsafe, but it did roll a bit and there was zero steering feedback. It was like playing the old Cruisin USA game at the arcade in terms of steering feel. So yeah, not great for driving fun.
When judging the handling of hybrids, be aware that most of them come with low rolling resistance tires, which come from a universe where grip is unknown. When I put the snows on my Volt each fall, grip and agility goes up!
I know I'm in late here.
I had a 2012 Volt, and took it on a number of very long road trips in the southeastern US, where there was little charging infrastructure, at least away from Tennessee, where Nissan was exerting influence.
If you don't plug it in, the Volt is a very consistent 40MPG car. You could drive it forever and never plug it in, and it'd be a fairly pleasant place to sit that sips gas.
I'm sure the Prius can sip less.
Regarding low rolling resistance tires, I did my first couple of autocrosses on them in my CR-Z. Replacing them with some Potenza RE-760 Sports improved my autocrosses times, improved how the car tracked down the road, and reduced road noise. Everything was better. My MPG didn't really change noticably on the road. A comparison of on-course MPG did change - I went from 14mpg to 7.
The thing about Prius handling is that a Prius is a Corolla is a Matrix is a Vibe except that the Prius technically has better weight distribution. Just bolt aftermarket stuff from the other models to it. Unless you're the kind of person that doesn't even mod so far as a set of lowering springs, in which case yes by all means bought-not-built your way into a better handling car!
I think i've said before that my most unnervingly ill-handling (stock) car was my CRX HF. Of course, i understood that i could have easily rectified it so i don't consider that a reflection of much besides my own decision not to modify it.
Well, DD#1 went out and test drove several of her options this weekend, all by herself. <thumbsup>
She's doing her internet research, too. She found out about a battery life issue in early C-Maxes, so she's bumped her target up from 2013 to a 2014 SEL. They seem to be pretty available with around 50k on them in the $12,000 range.
She's still looking for an Insight and a Volt to try, but they are thin on the ground locally. She also wants to try a RAV4 hybrid. I pointed out the Highlander hybrid, but she doesn't want something that large. She wants 5 doors, so the Camry is out.
Sorry I had to stop reading the other comments I was getting triggered...
Don't buy the 1st model year ever!
Don't buy gm hybrids they won't be nearly as cheap to maintain as Toyota Prius
Don't buy the Lexus variation or the Prius c ... You want the cheapest gen 2 or 3 available for a second car.
I bought an over priced 2013 at $9000 off the used lot they are selling at way less with private sellers. Just beat or wait out the tax return season and get the same car at $6000 from a private seller. Do a fluid flush, tire,spark plugs/ pad change, filter and rock it to 200,000 miles just changing the oil, and tires.
I am at ~120k miles still on the stock pads bought it at ~85k miles August. Oil changes and used tire changes... Just went 380 miles in snow storm to Detroit and back the other day on less than a full tank at 75mph . 45mpg winter and high 50s mpg in warmer weather.
As far as miserable soulless commuters go there is nothing even close in long term costs. Look at part replacement costs for the volt nowhere, close same for the Lexus. Junkyard parts and mass production ftw! (Allthough I would have initially bought either had they been on my price range or availablity just due to naivety and General hatred of the Prius before committing to the damn thing)
Oh and you if you buy the low class Prius 2 you can add on the amenities 4 less than the price of the higher model number....
In reply to Duke :
I'm betting you're right, and she won't be impressed by the Prius V, if she didn't like the regular Prius. The driving dynamics are going to be worse than the regular Prius, although I think the interior is slightly more conventional. The main thing I like it for is it has slightly greater then 6' of space from the tailgate to the back of the front seats, so could be used for hauling longer items, or as a very basic camper.
In reply to eastsideTim :
She's not expecting to enjoy the driving any better in the V, but she's wondering if the increased utility is worth it.
Hands down her favorite is the C-Max, so far.
In reply to Duke :
IIRC, it's a matter of whether you want cargo height (C-Max) or length (Prius V).
She's still looking for an Insight
I didn't mention that i've driven the 2g Insight too. In my opinion if she doesn't like the Prius she probably won't like the Insight either. It's basically worse in every single way except interior/exterior styling. It does have some typical 'small honda' responsiveness that makes it feel a little livelier than a Prius, but in objective terms it's cruder/noisier/slower and doesn't even win on mpg despite being lighter and shorter.
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