californiamilleghia said:Hopefully Tesla will not sue companies making replacement parts , only time will tell.....
Ohh and does anyone know what the European Community rules are on spare parts?
Isnt Tesla software open source? If they are willing to share that, I cant believe they would care about who makes replacement parts.
barefootskater said:I'm fascinated by all this. The engineering, packaging, performance, etc.. of EVs is amazing to watch develop and hit the market.
My few concerns, and they are minor and I may be blowing them out of proportion:
1) Batteries. How long do batteries last, ten years at best? Hypothetically: If a Tesla has a couple thousand little batteries and you can get them for $10 each (highly unlikely) then how much does it cost to replace them when they go? How much in labor? Seems to me that it is too much even for a DIY person to keep going in ten years.
2) The propulsion system is fine (simple, powerful) but I dislike computers. I dislike networks. I like mechanical stuff. I can see it working (or at least I can take it apart and see how it should work). When my computer has problems I can generally figure it out if it is minor. I can replace components easily enough if I know what to replace. But give me something that is carbureted and runs on points and I can keep that going pretty much forever with very minimal tooling. Maybe it'll get easier if I learn a bit more? Maybe better aftermarket support/documentation?
I tell you what I'd buy. A purely electric car with a reasonable range 350miles+-, reasonable charge time <1hour, and batteries that will last more than 5-7 years. Something with crank windows, manual seats, manual locks, a killer stereo and as little computing power as can be gotten away with. In a nutshell I want the performance and convenience of a tesla, the simplicity of a geo metro and the price of a civic. I'm sure we'll get there, but I don't think it'll be for a few more years.
1. Depends on so many factors it's impossible to truely say, however most companies have gotten +10 years out of packs before the degredation in milage (80% is the cutoff for GM) get enough that they advocate for a new pack. That doesn't mean the pack still can't be used tho- in fact, GM is thinking of some kind of community battery storage solution for used but working Volt batteries, as talked about here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/uciliawang/2011/08/08/chevy-volt-batteries-for-neighborhood-energy-storage/
2. You're just gonna have to learn, my friend. AC induction motors use computer system for the switching required, and with everything going towards the "Internet of Things" system the complexity is not going away. Thankfully, once you strip all the tech and autonomous driving, electic cars are remarkably simple and have a fraction of the moving parts.
In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :
I'm aware of the uses for used hybrid/EV batteries. I think the resourcefulness is cool and reusing old parts is part of what I like about hot-rodding in general. To be clear, as much as the environment is an issue and driving force in this whole topic, and I know making batteries pollutes and recycling them is a big issue, but that has nothing to do with my interest in EVs. I just think they are a good idea. I just don't think the battery tech is there yet. or if it is it is still too expensive.
In reply to barefootskater :
EV hot-rodding exists and is awesome, but it is a different sort of hot-rodding. In fact, I'd argue it will in the long run be much simpler than souping up an ICE, because the physics of batteries, wires and motors are more straightforward. Having said that, the reliance on software will probably be more intensive, and the aftermarket software is not yet developed to the point that it has for ICE.
You're right about the battery tech. In fact, I'd bet that a "Tesla Swap" of an advanced battery will be the LS swap of the early EV era. Fit a bigger battery and bigger wiring to an existing drivetrain and watch it roast tires!
barefootskater said:1) Batteries. How long do batteries last, ten years at best? Hypothetically: If a Tesla has a couple thousand little batteries and you can get them for $10 each (highly unlikely) then how much does it cost to replace them when they go? How much in labor? Seems to me that it is too much even for a DIY person to keep going in ten years.
Tesla uses standard Panasonic 18650 cells in its packs. They're much less than $10/ea; new ones can be had in the $2.50/ea range! And that's retail. I'm sure a wholesale price buying hundreds or thousands would be even less.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Panasonicc-NCR-18650B-HIGH-DRAIN-3400mAh-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Vape1-Battery/233044853165?hash=item36428e41ad:rk:5:pf:0&var
dculberson said:barefootskater said:1) Batteries. How long do batteries last, ten years at best? Hypothetically: If a Tesla has a couple thousand little batteries and you can get them for $10 each (highly unlikely) then how much does it cost to replace them when they go? How much in labor? Seems to me that it is too much even for a DIY person to keep going in ten years.
Tesla uses standard Panasonic 18650 cells in its packs. They're much less than $10/ea; new ones can be had in the $2.50/ea range! And that's retail. I'm sure a wholesale price buying hundreds or thousands would be even less.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4PCS-Panasonicc-NCR-18650B-HIGH-DRAIN-3400mAh-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Vape1-Battery/233044853165?hash=item36428e41ad:rk:5:pf:0&var
I learned something new today. Still though, don't some models use over 6000 of the things? 6000*2.50=$15000. Not quite cheap, but not as bad as I thought. Hell, I just sold a HV battery for an 02 prius, so folks will put more money into a car than the whole car is worth...
barefootskater said: Hell, I just sold a HV battery for an 02 prius, so folks will put more money into a car than the whole car is worth...
It kinda makes sense. If the rest of the car is in good shape and you'd just be trying to buy pretty much the same thing all over again anyway, it sometimes makes more sense to just fix what you've got. Even if it's not cheaper, at least it's a known quantity.
In Japan they are using old Prius battery packs as back up house power in case of earthquakes etc
If I could find some cheap enough I would get a battery packs good enough for a few days power at home in case of an earthquake ,
I guess all you really would need is to keep the food cold and radios / TV , plus lights at night ....
80 percent power would be fine for this use.......
barefootskater said:I learned something new today. Still though, don't some models use over 6000 of the things? 6000*2.50=$15000. Not quite cheap, but not as bad as I thought. Hell, I just sold a HV battery for an 02 prius, so folks will put more money into a car than the whole car is worth...
Is that big battery plant they are building (built?) in Nevada building car batteries, or is it just the power wall batteries?
(The plant is supposed to reduce the battery costs.)
In reply to barefootskater :
Yes, but usually the whole pack doesn't go bad, just a cell or two. An EV DIY-er can find and replace the bad cell and have the EV running again for much less than the cost of replacing the entire pack. For example, mazdeuce's Insight thread.
Once Teslas become more common on the used market and out of warranty, DIY info will become more prevalent.
In reply to Curtis :
Just wanted to point out one flaw in your analogy with the Olds 350 diesel.
No adult ever matted one (at least one that was still a diesel) and giggled like a retarded school girl.
Once you’ve done that in a Tesla you’ll forgive a whole plethora of shortcomings.
And I bet you'll have a stupid grin on your face when you mash the gas the first time (at least for a Tesla). The amount of torque and the instantaneous nature of an electric engine has to be felt to be believed. My FIL just got a Model S 75D (bottom of the line car) and seeing how it accelerates from a light or on the highway is just laughable.
This, literally. I drove a dual motor AWD Tesla 3 recently. Much of the time -- just 15 minutes or so of driving -- over and over, I slowed to 50 on the hwy, mashed the pedal to the floor, then laughed hysterically as the car hit 80 faster than anything I've ever driven. It was awesome.
There are all sorts of interesting, complex, and far-reaching implications of moving away from ICE, what/who is driving the change, etc.; it's good to consider all of this. But if you have a chance to drive a Tesla, forget about all that and just keep mashing the go pedal and enjoy the experience.
2 Things: I've driven a Tesla. Friend of mine bought one. He was always running out of juice trying to daily it 50 miles each way. There is only one fast charge station in Indy. Sure, he could get a decent charge in an hour... but he usually had to wait in line. So his normal hour-10 drive home in his ICE RSX-S would turn into a 2-3 hour drive or he'd be out of juice before getting home. There are cases where electric cars like that make sense. There are LOTS of places they don't. Anyone that has ever driven past the coasts of this country into the vast expanses of the west will know that having a limited range is not a benefit. If the infrastructure was in place it would be a different story. Unfortunately it's not. So putting all eggs into this one basket is, once again, idiotic at best.
I've said it a hundred times on this site alone, our country is too vast and diverse for ONE option to be THE option for everone. I feel people from the cities/coasts seem to forget that their way of life isn't the only way. I see efficient Hybrids/ICE and electrics working together (just like using solar, wind, NG and nuclear for our electric needs in unison) as our best option.
2nd thing: The instant power of the electric in his Tesla is... well.... amazeballs. I won't lie. There's a lot of neat things. Like the handles come out as you get near the car, the center display/stack/thing etc. I also see E36 M3 that is going to cost a fortune WHEN it breaks. Face it.... everything breaks. This site is here BECAUSE things break and we find ways to fix/improve them. I don't see a Tesla as being an economical 15 year old car.
I was looking at a Spectra5 recently that needed a clutch. It hit me.... theres nothing on that car that costs more than $500 to fix that is important to it being a car. Engines? $500 used. trans? $3-500 used. tires? $400. I would almost venture a bet that theres nothing UNDER $500 to replace on most teslas.
I wonder what the Tesla computer was thinking when you were doing the 50 to 80mph sprints ,
You can be pretty sure it was not programmed to do that by itself and may have thought it was in a loop..,.
Has anyone confused the Tesla computer like HAL in 2001 a space odessy movie :)
bobzilla said:2 Things: I've driven a Tesla. Friend of mine bought one. He was always running out of juice trying to daily it 50 miles each way. There is only one fast charge station in Indy. Sure, he could get a decent charge in an hour... but he usually had to wait in line. So his normal hour-10 drive home in his ICE RSX-S would turn into a 2-3 hour drive or he'd be out of juice before getting home.
The lowest spec Tesla model S has a 249 mile range; are you telling me he was running out of charge in a fully charged car at 100 miles? Was there something wrong with the car or was he just not charging it every day?
I've driven several Teslas. They are fun in the "OMG this is fast" sense. That said, I can't stand the company or its fanboi vehicle owners. The gigantic touchscreen is minimalism gone too far, and I consider it a safety risk.
I'd be super-duper happy with electrification of normal cars with normal interiors.
Other thing to realize, as others have said, is electric cars work for some people. The infrastructure just isn't there yet. Hell, even in cities, what do you do if you street-park at night? I know EV owners who think EV is the only answer moving forward and somehow cannot fathom that others' lives are different from theirs.
TLDR: EVs are fun, most of their owners are annoying AF.
Brake_L8 said:
I'd be super-duper happy with electrification of normal cars with normal interiors.
^ This right here
I'm impressed w/ the Bolt powertrain, just don't package it in an concept looking vehicle. Gimme a Regal, Malibu etc. and call it a win.
Brake_L8 said:I've driven several Teslas. They are fun in the "OMG this is fast" sense. That said, I can't stand the company or its fanboi vehicle owners. The gigantic touchscreen is minimalism gone too far, and I consider it a safety risk.
I'd be super-duper happy with electrification of normal cars with normal interiors.
Other thing to realize, as others have said, is electric cars work for some people. The infrastructure just isn't there yet. Hell, even in cities, what do you do if you street-park at night? I know EV owners who think EV is the only answer moving forward and somehow cannot fathom that others' lives are different from theirs.
TLDR: EVs are fun, most of their owners are annoying AF.
These are my thoughts as well. I sat in a model S, then in an S class, or even an E class, and wonder what Tesla was thinking with that interior. Don’t get me started on the fanboys. We have a guy at work that got a 3 and you’d think he was saving the planet all on his own.
Cotton said:Brake_L8 said:I've driven several Teslas. They are fun in the "OMG this is fast" sense. That said, I can't stand the company or its fanboi vehicle owners. The gigantic touchscreen is minimalism gone too far, and I consider it a safety risk.
I'd be super-duper happy with electrification of normal cars with normal interiors.
Other thing to realize, as others have said, is electric cars work for some people. The infrastructure just isn't there yet. Hell, even in cities, what do you do if you street-park at night? I know EV owners who think EV is the only answer moving forward and somehow cannot fathom that others' lives are different from theirs.
TLDR: EVs are fun, most of their owners are annoying AF.
These are my thoughts as well. I sat in a model S, then in an S class, or even an E class, and wonder what Tesla was thinking with that interior. Don’t get me started on the fanboys. We have a guy at work that got a 3 and you’d think he was saving the planet all on his own.
Honestly I think the Tesla DBs are the new BMW DBs. They can't fathom that their obnoxiousness hurts the public image of the brand! Meanwhile I'm a non-Tesla EV owner who just wanted a super cheap city car, and as awesome as the Tesla performance models are, I don't think I'd buy one for stigma alone. Luckily I don't have $70k for a car so I'm not their target market!
If I needed to go in the carpool lanes everyday , and it saved me 30 minutes each way I sure would consider an EV ,
But reading the California rules the 1st Gen Prius is not considered good enough for carpool use now , nor an E85 car and many others.
That was one of the "hooks," they used to get people to buy the first EVs - hybrids ,
californiamilleghia said:If I needed to go in the carpool lanes everyday , and it saved me 30 minutes each way I sure would consider an EV ,
But reading the California rules the 1st Gen Prius is not considered good enough for carpool use now , nor an E85 car and many others.
That was one of the "hooks," they used to get people to buy the first EVs - hybrids ,
Since something like 5% of cars in CA are EVs (more like 10% in LA/SFO) and the Prius has been the #1 seller in the state for years, yeah, no more HOV for Priuses.
For me it was the magic of depreciation + home charging + easy maintenance, with a sprinkling of electric torque and the (really nice) i3 interior as icing.
Edit: I forgot to add, the damn thing also has a carbon fiber tub! I'm not sure if that is a plus or a minus considering the insurance costs....
In reply to dculberson :
The house they were renting did not have a 220 outlet to install the home fast charger so he was limited to charging with a 110 extension cord. It took something like 16 hours to fully charge it but he was only home 10-11 hours so it never got a full charge. Every other day he'd have to wait in line at the charge station to get home.
In reply to bobzilla :
Yes that’s someone a Tesla doesn’t make a lot of sense for!
In reply to bobzilla :
IIRC he could have charged it faster if he could have made up a cord from the dryer outlet. Still not as fast as the full fast charger, but faster than a standard 120v outlet.
In reply to rslifkin :
Or you know... install a 240? Not an expensive install and I would hope the time saved would be worth more than his time waiting to charge the thing every other day (I assume his opportunity cost per hour is not low given he drives a Tesla...). He already spent a boatload of money on the car, what’s another few hundred bucks to get a faster charge?
There are many instances where an EV doesn’t make sense. This doesn’t appear to be one of them
You'll need to log in to post.
