The $300k fun to drive question

Driven5 said:

Andy Hollis said:

I can relate.

The only reason I own a McLaren is for track days at big tracks ( I live near COTA), plus One Lap.  It's the perfect car for both.

That said, it is also incredible for country road drives...nothing else is even close.

Can you expand more on what subjectively makes the McLaren so great on country road drives?

It's hard to put into words, but it's simply "perfect".  If I close my eyes and place my hands where the wheel should be, it is there.  Everything I reach for eyes closed is where I'd expect it to be.  So the ergonomics are ideal, IMO.

The driving itself is sublime. Dial it down to "Comfort" and set the DCT to auto mode, and you can drive it effortlessly around turns and over bumps, not even knowing the bumps are there.  My old Porsche 997.2 GT3 was not like that.  Turn the 720's wheel and it does exactly what you expect. 

Or when you go to the track, you dial it up to Track/manual mode, with immediate suspension response, and crisp paddle shifting.  That's the beauty of the dynamic suspension in the Super Series cars (12C, 650, 675LT, 720, 765LT, 750).  The Sport Series do not have that and don't deliver the same experience...I've tracked them back-to-back.  570, 600LT, 620R, etc.

On the topic of reliability, I could write a book on it.  The 12C, of which I owned an early one, was McLaren learning to make road cars.  They have tons of issues, especially when tracked, which were fixed through running changes.  The 650 is just a face-lifted 12C but with all the latest parts.  So it's better. 

570 was a MUCH better engineered car.  But it lacked the dynamic suspension.  Which is why I sold mine.

The 720 is where McLaren finally matched legit supercar quality engineering with their dynamic suspension...and even more power.  I mean, this car is fast...like stupid fast.  And you don't even know it unless you look at the speedo.  When I give rides at COTA, I point to the speedo when it says 183mph down the back straight, cuz the car just does it so effortlessly. 

BTW, you can get a good used 720 now for $200k.  Still not cheap, but also not $300k anymore.  And 570's are not far above the $100K mark.

On the topic of depreciation, its true.  McLaren has a habit of over-building quantity which kills the long-term value, at least in the supercar space.  The "LT" versions are limited quantity so they hold up well.  That said, they overbuilt the 600LT, so those are a really good value.

One more comment...the customer base for each brand.

Given the high cost of entry ($600 a day), COTA track days draw more high end owners and not the typical track rats you might see at a NASA event or TNIA.  All the marques are there, with the attendant owners...so you get a really good read on a typical Ferrari/Lambo/Porsche person.

Of all of them, the McLaren folks are "my people".  Most are down-to-earth, non pretentious, fast-car-appreciating people like me.  And we regularly have a dozen Macs.  Each of the other groups, which do tend to hang together at the track, are...not that.  I have a number of stories I can tell over a beer about each...

--Andy

PS: I instruct so my laps there are free. 

Just to put Andy's statement of "183mph down the back straight" at COTA in some perspective, I rode shotgun in a Nissan GTR (a 2011) and I thought we were flying when the speedo indicated 146mph in that same section.  The driver was good (lots of HPDE days) but not a pro or decorated amateur.  
Still...37 mph faster than Godzilla = a significant wow! in my book.

Andy Hollis said:

PS: I instruct so my laps there are free. 

not free, you're just not paying money...

instructors that are willing to get into a high horsepower car wheeled by a novice is earning their keep and then some.  

ClearWaterMS said:

Andy Hollis said:

PS: I instruct so my laps there are free. 

not free, you're just not paying money...

instructors that are willing to get into a high horsepower car wheeled by a novice is earning their keep and then some.  

Fair point.  And also why I no longer right-seat anywhere else.  I did that gig for a long while at various tracks around Texas and while never having having any significant close-calls or incidents, I had plenty of learning moments where I'd have to bring some "cowboy" into the pits to have "the talk". 

"Once you are solo, you are free to drive at 10/10ths, but not while I am in the car.  I am instructing for safety and technique, not pace".   <<Though we all know those things will make you faster.  >>

The gig at COTA with Edge Addicts is mostly rank novices who just need a baby-sitter in the right seat to keep them from doing something dumb.  Most just want to watch the speedo down the back straight ("Eyes up!!"). 

Best of all, instructors pick students, not the organizers.  I tend to avoid all the modern muscle cars, and try to find average BMWs and the like.  I also get drawn to cars that sport the local Texas Spokes autocross club sticker, since they at least have a modicum of car control skill.

And finally, not that any track is safe, COTA is about as safe as it gets.  Plenty of paved runoff, followed by gravel traps, and then TechPro barriers.   So its about as good as it gets.

Coniglio Rampante said:

Just to put Andy's statement of "183mph down the back straight" at COTA in some perspective, I rode shotgun in a Nissan GTR (a 2011) and I thought we were flying when the speedo indicated 146mph in that same section.  The driver was good (lots of HPDE days) but not a pro or decorated amateur.  
Still...37 mph faster than Godzilla = a significant wow! in my book.

In the realm of supercars, the GT-R is a pig.  Front engine, big, heavy.  It's an exotic old school muscle car.  It's fast, but not quite on par with the others.  It's also ancient at this point.

Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche stand out in this price range as the class of the field.  Lamborghini is all about "look at me" attention.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

Coniglio Rampante said:

Just to put Andy's statement of "183mph down the back straight" at COTA in some perspective, I rode shotgun in a Nissan GTR (a 2011) and I thought we were flying when the speedo indicated 146mph in that same section.  The driver was good (lots of HPDE days) but not a pro or decorated amateur.  
Still...37 mph faster than Godzilla = a significant wow! in my book.

In the realm of supercars, the GT-R is a pig.  Front engine, big, heavy.  It's an exotic old school muscle car.  It's fast, but not quite on par with the others.  It's also ancient at this point.

Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche stand out in this price range as the class of the field.  Lamborghini is all about "look at me" attention.

I will say the Huracan EVO I drove had absolutely stellar brakes. I continually over slowed in the braking zones, but I didn't like the darty front end. It felt like the ratio was too quick, or I wasn't picking up the throttle soon enough. It felt like if you barely moved the wheel, it just lurched toward the apex and then just wanted to understeer through mid-corner and exit.

I suspect it was me. It's hard to get a feel for a car in 5 laps, especially after driving the GT4 RS...........30 minutes before. 

In reply to z31maniac :

It's not you, that's an accurate description of the Lambo.  Gas and brake are too sensitive.  All about grabbing attention.  Handling is very sloppy... significant understeer until it transitions to snap oversteer.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

And none of that negates the fact that back in 2014, the car hit what was considered a high velocity for that era on the same section of track that Andy cited, and his McLaren would simply run away from that GTR today, which impresses me.  
 

That was my only point.

In reply to Coniglio Rampante :

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way.  I was just agreeing with you in that it would be slower.  Yes, it's still a very impressive car when looked at through a wide lens.  Just not so much when compared to other exotics.

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Understood, appreciate the clarification.

Thread drift alert....I'm simply amazed by what performance cars can do.  Way back in the day, I rode in a then-new Porsche 930.  That thing felt fast as hell and I think for that year the quoted horsepower was something like 280.  And it rode on Pirelli P7's (which I thought were super cool at the time...anyone remember those?).  
With the passage of time, cars can run all day on 87-93 octane pump gas on what used to be considered high compression ratios suitable for something like 101 octane or whatever.  And street-legal tires getting all of this modern horsepower to the ground and offering more grip than race tires from the not too distant past...we live in a golden age of engineering and materials science.  

Yup, I'm amazed by what the certified smart people can do with their brains when given the chance.

In reply to Coniglio Rampante :

A caretaker of exotic cars on a forum I used to be on got a chance to work with an early 930.  From his description, while the numbers were low by modern standards (even in 2007) the power delivery made it seem like there was twice as much.  Late and hard and nothing until it happens.

It may have been a '75.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sums it up well.  It was like a light switch:  off, off, off... ON!!!

Coniglio Rampante said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sums it up well.  It was like a light switch:  off, off, off... ON!!!

I've driven an early 930 on track and that description is pretty accurate. You can drive around a lot of it though. The car also had very heavy controls which made it seem even more brutish.

I've finally learned that the most fun cars for me are the ones I can hustle hard and use to their fullest extent without too much stress over the financial burden to run (or wreck) them.  Driving a super-fast sports car on public roads does absolutely nothing for me... been there, done that.  I'm jealous of people who can find the joy in it.  I've had many friends who quickly learned the difference between being able to afford to buy a (name exotic car) vs. being able to afford to actually use it for more than Cars and Coffee.  Even as a novice or intermediate driver, the cost to do track days in a Ferrari, Lambo, or similar car will make your eyes water.  For those that can afford to comfortably write off such a car, I'm sure it's wonderful and way cooler than a Miata or a Mini.  The rest of us either have to set our sights a little lower, or deal with the stress and anxiety of having something bad happen.  That to me is the opposite of fun.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

So I was once asked to drive a Ferrari as fast as it would go by the owner who could afford to write it off if I crashed it. After some reluctance on my part, the owner managed to convince me to drive it as fast as I could make it go.

The car was just amazing and I put up some respectable lap times but...........

My remarks to the owner were "if you get it wrong in this you are going to be traveling a ton, this is a big car and you won't have much time to bring it back."

Andy's comments about COTA having lots of running off are spot on. If you're at a track without that running things would get ugly fast.

Now I know some people will recall I'm the guy who is always saying single seat cars offer a better deal for huge performance. The difference with a sports racer is that those cars are 1/3 of the weight and much easier to bring back from the brink.

With all that said I have to admit I have more fun in way less capable cars. 

"This 

So let's look at exactly what the difference is between that 300K car and a really well developed "cheap" modern sports car .. the Triple Threat ND2  This is Harris Hill Raceway and both are on low tread depth 200tw tires.

The 720 there is not that much fun. Gaaaaas, braaaaaake...gaaaaas, braaaake.  Whereas the ND2 is so much finesse, balancing the car on the edge, rolling speed, etc.  2:19.7 vs 2:23.9

Here's where the real supercar fun is...COTA.  You can make a sandwich on the straights in the ND2, but the 720 is just the right amount of work everywhere.  2:37 vs 2:14...the latter being the Limited class record for awhile at GTA Super Lap Battle.

In reply to Andy Hollis :

I have a high metabolism; I need time to eat between corners, a super car will never work for me.

I read that as not driving COTA is a good way to save $300k.

Andy Hollis said:

So let's look at exactly what the difference is between that 300K car and a really well developed "cheap" modern sports car .. the Triple Threat ND2  This is Harris Hill Raceway and both are on low tread depth 200tw tires.

The 720 there is not that much fun. Gaaaaas, braaaaaake...gaaaaas, braaaake.  Whereas the ND2 is so much finesse, balancing the car on the edge, rolling speed, etc.  2:19.7 vs 2:23.9

 

I'm kind of surprised to see the Miata quicker in some of the slower corners. 

z31maniac said:

 

I'm kind of surprised to see the Miata quicker in some of the slower corners. 

Two words...seat time.  I have thousands of laps there in the Miata, and it has been developed specifically for and at that track.  So I can, and am willing to take it right to the absolute limit...and I know exactly where it is.

The 720 is also much trickier to drive there.  For example, at the 2700' mark is the "dam turn - T8" entry.  In the Miata, a typical wide entry from track left helps carry speed through to the apex.  And it's no big deal to move track left through T9 while WOT.

In the 720, it is faster to keep your foot in it through T9, eating up pavement as quickly as possible, which pushes the car track right.  Then dynamite the brakes at the T8 entrance and turn.  Entry is slower, but you got there a whole helluva lot quicker. 

I've tried the lower power Miata line in the 720 and it just doesn't work very well.  That car gets really unhappy in heavy braking from high speed if the car is turning at all.

On the seat time thing, you'll see a few spots at COTA where the 720 is quicker through the turns, especially in the esses.  I have very few laps there in the ND2.

In reply to Andy Hollis :

Makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation!

Driving a racetrack is all about compromises, being fast in one place means being slower in others.  Maintaining speed through corners means taking wider lines, which means you spend more time in the corner, which means you spend less time on the throttle.  On a low powered car like a Miata that's the right compromise because getting that speed back takes forever, but everything changes when you've got 4x the horsepower.  The tradeoff shifts and you start "diamonding" sweepers, taking straighter lines in and out of them and doing most of the rotation in a smaller area in the middle at lower speed.  The more power you have, the more the track starts to look like a series of drag strips.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

The more power you have, the more the track starts to look like a series of drag strips.

Perfect analogy.

The COTA speed trace for the 720 pretty much looks just like that.  Even in the esses...little mini drag strips.