The continuing Cash for Clunkers saga...

ddavidv wrote: Photographed in a "clunker" trade in line at a dealership: So those of us who argued only craptastic SUVs would be sent to the crusher...are now free to beat our heads against the wall.

Now that is down right painful to see. I don't think I could stand to watch that one get destroyed. Wow.....just wow.

You think that's bad, some E30 BMWs, including M3, are now on the list. But the '87 Crown Vic came off the list.

I'll cry if an E30 M3 is traded in.

really?

It took me being a father to realize that things are just things, and can be replaced.

Not really, but it's kind of weird how they are making the list.

edit: Sorry ignorant, something wacky happened when I posted this, and your post went away. I think I have it back to what it was. Sorry.

no problem..

I mean I understand the emotional pull of a very sweet car and the senseless destruction of them is goofy, but.. Can't stop it now and no use crying.

ignorant wrote: no problem.. I mean I understand the emotional pull of a very sweet car and the senseless destruction of them is goofy, but.. Can't stop it now and no use crying.

It's more figurative than literal. I don't think most of us would actually cry, just that it's seems to be a terrible waste.

Feedyurhed wrote:

ignorant wrote: no problem.. I mean I understand the emotional pull of a very sweet car and the senseless destruction of them is goofy, but.. Can't stop it now and no use crying.

It's more figurative than literal. I don't think most of us would actually cry, just that it's seems to be a terrible waste.

Not the first government program to involve waste.

Tommy Suddard wrote: This is horrible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj2KrKYTZo

3 qualified mechanics watch the destruction of a car for 4 minutes and 28 seconds. They probably spent twice that draining the oil and adding the sodium silicate. Let's call it 15 minutes.

At $30 per hour, that's $22.50 per car. ($30*3)/4

The initial billion was supposed to destroy 250,000 cars. Now there's 2 billion more- total of 750,000 cars.

That's $16,875,000 in lost productive labor for those mechanics.

I saw somewhere, maybe even in this thread that it takes up to four hours per car, including all the paper work to complete the process. Then it's off to some where else for more processing......stripping, crushing etc. Geeeez.

This program looks like a subversive way to through a bone to the banking industry.

I didn't do the math, but a quick look at those eligibility lists appear that the average purchase price for the cars is over $25,000. A $4000 rebate means the average consumer will spend $21,000 on their new car, when they had a DECENT RUNNING CAR ALREADY!

I'd bet the VAST majority of them finance their stupid purchases.

750,000 car loans of $21,000 each equals $15,750,000,000 in new auto loans (and increased US consumer indebtedness). Yes, that's nearly $16 billion dollars.

If those loans average 7% for 48 months, the lenders stand to gain $2,346,000,000 in interest in the next 4 years.

Sounds like a consumer funded $2.3 billion dollar boost for the lenders, while we throw away our decent running cars, take on increased indebtedness, and raise our insurance rates (since the new financed cars will need comprehensive coverage, and the old ones needed only basic coverage).

Isn't stupid borrowing beyond our means what got us into the banking crisis in the first place?

The idiocy never ends.

Feedyurhed wrote: I saw somewhere, maybe even in this thread that it takes up to four hours per car, including all the paper work to complete the process. Then it's off to some where else for more processing......stripping, crushing etc. Geeeez.

I was trying to be nice.

If it's 4 hours instead of the 15 minutes I suggested, then my $16,875,000 loss in productive labor would be more like $270,000,000.

That's just the value of the mechanics. Not the paperwork, crusher, stripping, etc.

Hmmmmm......a government program that's wasteful and poorly conceived.

SVreX wrote: ......Sounds like a consumer funded $2.3 billion dollar boost for the lenders.......

Consumer AND taxpayer funded. The bozo who traded in his Mustang GT? That person was too lazy, stupid, greedy to sell the car to an enthusiast. Instead, his $4500 rebate is taxpayer funded. He took the path of least resistance at our expense. And the GT is a casualty of politics and the previous owner's ignorance.

The CFC program was ramrodded thru congress, while they drag their feet on regulation of oil speculation.

I just question the motives.. Could the economy have been stimulated just as much by spending the money on diapers, refrigerators or even a turbocharger for my car??

I am sure that this $4500, after being filtered through the government beaurocracy, might be closer to $6000 of tax money.

While I have no problem with a strong American car industry, my sympathies are not going to the stupid, manipulative and possibly criminal activities that led to their current state.

This is not fixing the problem...just softening the symptoms.

Bruce

egnorant wrote: This is not fixing the problem...just softening the symptoms.

Yup. This is how america does things. We never attack hard issues straight on, because usually they do one(or both) of two things; cost (individuals) lots of money or make us feel uncomfortable. In America money and comfort are prized; everyone is guilty of it(me included).

They shoudl have just given everyone $4500, on the provision that the money MUST be used on buying a car or fixing their car (new tranny).

And of course the "fixing" part could obviously be used for a turbocharger upgrade, or hardened gears, or some track tires

So far every economic stimulus plan has tried to get Americans to get further into debt ie(1) buy a car and we will play your payments if you lose your job (2) first time buyers program and now (3) trade in your gas guzzler for new payment. Big Brother is really the financial institutions and manuf who will profit from these programs. Americans should wise up and not play this game.

This program is definitely a shot in the arm for the auto industry. I heard on Marketplace that the dealers are on schedule to sell as many cars this year as they did just a few years ago. In this recession economy that's incredible. This may be the way they clear out all the left over inventory we saw sitting around in the spring.

Keeping our auto industry in the black is a good thing.

~ ON THE OTHER HAND ~

This reminds me of the stories I heard when I was restoring muscle cars. The story of how the gas crisis hit and everybody was trading their Plymouth Superbirds in on Pintos. How the muscle cars were seen as dinosaurs and on the way out so they had no value as a commodity. With all the cars being crushed we will see the value of the kept cars going up.

I agree with SVReX. Irresponsible loans on both ends, bank and consumer, were supposedly how we got here in the first place. I wonder what the outcome will be from this.

Steve Chryssos wrote:

SVreX wrote: ......Sounds like a consumer funded $2.3 billion dollar boost for the lenders.......

Consumer AND taxpayer funded. The bozo who traded in his Mustang GT? That person was too lazy, stupid, greedy to sell the car to an enthusiast. Instead, his $4500 rebate is taxpayer funded. He took the path of least resistance at our expense. And the GT is a casualty of politics and the previous owner's ignorance. The CFC program was ramrodded thru congress, while they drag their feet on regulation of oil speculation.

Considering that the Mustang GT is a popular car for the Challenge, find me one person who is going to pay even $3500 for it? And that the price is so cheap, it means that there are HUGE numbers of them on the road- loosing a percentage of them isn't a big deal.

It's not about being an enthusiest- it's being a smart consumer- if you ARE going to buy a new car, $3500 > $2500.

Tommy brings up the M3- here's a stunner for you all, we are strongly considering trashing our 164LS. Rare car that it is (only about 1,000 94-95 164's were sold in the US), the demand for it is so bad that I see them not selling at $2500. M3's hold their values better. Since we are getting a new car regardless next spring, this program would save us $3500.

Of course, IF someone paid us that money to preserve the car, I would not hesitate to sell it. And we are TRYING to sell it. But I'd much rather see the car recycled than taking up space in my backyard.

editorial- Thing is, this program really impacts this board a lot- this, by far, is the most frugal board I participate in, and Alfisti are known to be cheapskates. Bear in mind, I mean that in the best possible content- GRM'ers are creative in making the most out of a little. When you see Alfas and Mustangs, and other interesting cars get crushed, it's a resource that makes it more difficult to deal with. I really understand where all of you are coming from.

But. You have to equally understand that for many people, it's about money, not emotion, not being creative in making something out of nothing. If you are in the market for a new car (and large numbers of people are, annually), this program can help out a ton.

As for the "waste"- here's one other perspective. All the cars being crushed- that part of the market has gotten no support from anyone, this is an indirect way to support the recycling business, too. They covered a local yard here, who mentioned hiring a bunch of people back, and going from 8 to 10 to 12 hour days with overtime. And all of those people pay income tax. A lot of this money will be recycled back into tax revenue.

SVReX- the banks that really benefit are the ones that were not really part of TARP even when they suffered under others idiocy. The OEM banks.

E-

Eric, I will take the 164 if you throw it away ;)

SVreX wrote: Isn't stupid borrowing beyond our means what got us into the banking crisis in the first place?

Give that man a cookie.

White_and_Nerdy wrote: You think that's bad, some E30 BMWs, including M3, are now on the list. But the '87 Crown Vic came off the list.

I think only enthusiasts own E30 M3s, i hope, and know better than to trade those in for 4500 bucks when they are worth 10 and 12 grand still. Just plain jane E30s though, i hate to see those heading to the crusher. Now if they were to end up in the junkyard, thats a whole different story. I could use bits and pieces off those...

I have read alot of comments about how people such as nancy pelosi and others think this program is a huge success and say stuff like "the public has spoken with their wallets" etc. Of course people are going to turn cars in, for the people that a car is just an appliance, they will do it becasue $4500 is alot more than you are going to get for a normal trade in on anything much over 10 years old, not becasue they are excuted the government has given them a change to help save the plantet by buying a new car that gets 2 mpg better than thier old one.

. This is just my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone, but I think is it really a shame to destroy a rare car like a 164ls just because it makes better financial sense. I know how much work and money it takes to keep a car like that on the road, snd if saving money was the goal, there are other cars that would perform the same function and cost thousands of dollars less to drive and maintain over the life of the car.

I just saw somebody on CNN getting $4,500 on a used car he only paid $4,000 for a little more than a year ago.