Similar cars. Different missions. Very different equipment.
The brakes for both the road and race versions of the latest Ford GT are supplied by the same company, but their specs vary. Greatly.
The street car’s brakes must perform at a high level while also remaining civil—no noise, no discomfort. The ones on the race car have a narrower purpose: to …
Ford GT at a track day, you must be kidding. Only if it was enclosed in a plastic bubble with land mines around it. Ford could have fudged on the engineering since none of these things actually get driven. These are strictly investment grade jewelry. That said, I love them and the GT40 before them.
Interesting article, thanks. I think that racing practice has improved street brakes in many cases. If Jaguar hadn't been running Le Mans they probably wouldn't have gone to discs as early as they did.
There are many cars made with perfectly adequate braking systems but owners insist on changing them out for something larger, more colourful and most important fo many, praiseworthy in the eyes of their peers when nothing was needed Some of them try and rationalize it by starting with older half thrashed ill maintained stock systems that they toss out and install new big brake kits and say that the huge difference proves they needed them, despite the fact that in many cases if they had first maintained their stock system and chosen optimal pads, there would have been little difference in the end result.
Nothing at all wrong with fitting stuff to your car for no other reason than you think it is neat - big brakes, alloy wheels etc. etc. Not sure what the deal with the self deluding need to justify that sort of mod as being a safety necessity is all about.
In the old days, there were a bunch of cars manufactured with crap braking systems - take a look at the first discs used on the front of a Cooper S (I laugh every time I see one) or the rotors they had in the Tiger (wonder who said 'Why don't we make a pocket Cobra out of an Alpine by sticking a V8 in it, but lets stick with 13" wheels so we can't fit a competent brake in there for anyone that actually drives hard")
wspohn said:There are many cars made with perfectly adequate braking systems but owners insist on changing them out for something larger, more colourful and most important fo many, praiseworthy in the eyes of their peers when nothing was needed
Agree. I think you just summed up a wide swath of the aftermarket industry these days, not just brakes.
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) said:wspohn said:There are many cars made with perfectly adequate braking systems but owners insist on changing them out for something larger, more colourful and most important fo many, praiseworthy in the eyes of their peers when nothing was needed
Agree. I think you just summed up a wide swath of the aftermarket industry these days, not just brakes.
Brakes are the #1 issue by a wide margin though, so many people think they need more braking power when they really just need more brake heat capacity/brake cooling. Fancy brake upgrades are a great way to end up with increased unsprung weight and/or a severely lightened wallet (up-front and ongoing, hello race-grade consumables!), while more aggressive pads, good fluid and a cheap brake vent system on a factory all-around disc setup can do the job just as well on most any car that retailed for under 6 digits in the first place.
I've been building and racing an old Mercedes 16-valve for some 10 years now. So, I'm one of the few guys with real-world experience driving this platform pretty hard on the track. I've done ok for myself considering my modest skill and budget (regional champion twice; national champion this year).
There's a growing interest in tracking the 16-valve with a bunch of builds starting on various forums and FB groups. Every single one is obsessed with brake upgrades: 400E 4-pistons, 500E Brembos, Porsche kits, and others. Every thread is "which big brakes do I need for XYZ application" etc.
Meanwhile, I'm here quietly collecting class wins on stock single-piston sliding calipers with just upgraded pads (Raybestos ST-43) and fluid (Prospeed RS683). That setup lets me use lighter, cheaper 15" wheels and tires instead of "upgrading" to 17" for no reason. No one seems to believe this is possible.
Glad you all enjoyed the piece. It was informative to put together.
Thanks.
In reply to GameboyRMH : One of my joys in life is seeing a car with a big break kit running on discount all seasons at track day. I do give 'em bit of a head start though.
In reply to LanEvo :
My solution was using the ubiquitous Datsun 280ZX upgrade for the 1200 (used on 510s & 1200s). I allows me to use commonly available street pads.
The caliper and disk add 3lbs of unsprung weight but I get that back because the Hoosier bias ply is 4lbs lighter than a radial tire.
I went with the bigger brakes because the are more available and I left foot brake which puts a ton of heat in the brakes.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Elkhart Lake with its 3 long straights followed by tight 90 degree or tighter corners and a total of 14 corners in 4 miles of race track tends to be the exception. Well and Watkins Glen, to a small degree Road Atlanta.
Especially big Fast cars like Corvettes and Jaguars.
Cars at the sharp end of the SVRA group 6 grid are making 650+ horsepower. 200-250 horsepower more than Back in the day. Original calipers were Iron. Just replacing them with aftermarket saves 35-40 pounds. Not to mention more effective cooling.
In reply to 300zxfreak :
I posted a thread here (with a pic) about a Chin track day at Sebring about a year ago. One guy there had a Ford GT, two Pagani's, and a FIA GT-3 spec Lambo Hurrican. He did spend more time in the Lambo, but he took all of them out at least twice.
One of the great things about small cars is that simply fitting a larger car's brakes to them results in astonishingly good binders. When I built our Volvo Amazon 24 hours of LeMons car, I used aluminum single piston GM metrics and Grand Marquis vented rotors. I did have to upsize to a 16" wheel, but because everything OEM on the Volvo was steel and iron, the net weight difference was negligible.
ST43 pads up front, and cheap organics in the back, and they lasted an entire weekend with probably another weekend in them.
racerfink said:In reply to 300zxfreak :
I posted a thread here (with a pic) about a Chin track day at Sebring about a year ago. One guy there had a Ford GT, two Pagani's, and a FIA GT-3 spec Lambo Hurrican. He did spend more time in the Lambo, but he took all of them out at least twice.
Yup, plenty of owners of high dollar cars take them to the track. The rarest I've seen (not counting the annual Historics races at Laguna Seca) was a McLaren F1 that someone brought to a Shelby Club track day. That was a while ago when they were "only" worth a million or so each though.
300zxfreak said:Ford GT at a track day, you must be kidding. Only if it was enclosed in a plastic bubble with land mines around it. Ford could have fudged on the engineering since none of these things actually get driven. These are strictly investment grade jewelry. That said, I love them and the GT40 before them.
We get them at COTA track days. All three generations. We also get ex-F1 and LeMans cars now in private hands, and current IMSA GT and LMP3 cars with pro teams practicing.
We also typically have a dozen McLarens, half a dozen Ferraris and a filthy amount of Porsche GT2/GT3 cars. How about a Valkyrie? Yep, that guy comes out a lot, too. It's pretty nuts.
LanEvo said:I've been building and racing an old Mercedes 16-valve for some 10 years now. So, I'm one of the few guys with real-world experience driving this platform pretty hard on the track. I've done ok for myself considering my modest skill and budget (regional champion twice; national champion this year).
There's a growing interest in tracking the 16-valve with a bunch of builds starting on various forums and FB groups. Every single one is obsessed with brake upgrades: 400E 4-pistons, 500E Brembos, Porsche kits, and others. Every thread is "which big brakes do I need for XYZ application" etc.
Meanwhile, I'm here quietly collecting class wins on stock single-piston sliding calipers with just upgraded pads (Raybestos ST-43) and fluid (Prospeed RS683). That setup lets me use lighter, cheaper 15" wheels and tires instead of "upgrading" to 17" for no reason. No one seems to believe this is possible.
The same went for 944s. You could run the factory big brakes but it adds a bunch of un sprung weight.
We found that the stock single piston calipers and rotors only needed a upgraded pad and hardware store cooling ducts.
The Rio has oversized (for its class) brakes that work very well. Did my first season of time trials on street pads and there was sone life left in them. The swap to real pads just made it stand out even more. 11"fr/10.5" rear discs with an absolutely stellar abs makes the car so amazing in the whoa dept.
the forte, it has adequate brakes. 12" front, 11" rear rotors. But the stock pads they use have to be the absolute worst pad for feel, bite and heat. Just terrible. One hard freeway speed stop has them smelling, the pedal hard as a rock and grip very minimal. I'll start with a good set of pads for it first and see how that improves the braking. There is an easy 13" rotor setup from the N cars so if it's not enough there's a cheap factory option.
We track a 2004 996.2 with a Stock engine/trans and full mono-ball suspension with Hankook or Pirelli slicks. We have retained the stock brakes with no performance issues. We use Hawk DTC 70 pads with Castrol SRF fluid and have installed SS lines and F&R Cup Car ducting.
Great article! Loved the simplified comparison.
300zxfreak said:Ford GT at a track day, you must be kidding. Only if it was enclosed in a plastic bubble with land mines around it. Ford could have fudged on the engineering since none of these things actually get driven. These are strictly investment grade jewelry. That said, I love them and the GT40 before them.
Actually saw one at a driving school at Mosport on the weekend. Didn't take a pic because I already posted the exact same car in the unicorn sighting thread:
volvoclearinghouse said:One of the great things about small cars is that simply fitting a larger car's brakes to them results in astonishingly good binders. When I built our Volvo Amazon 24 hours of LeMons car, I used aluminum single piston GM metrics and Grand Marquis vented rotors. I did have to upsize to a 16" wheel, but because everything OEM on the Volvo was steel and iron, the net weight difference was negligible.
ST43 pads up front, and cheap organics in the back, and they lasted an entire weekend with probably another weekend in them.
Technically there are hundreds/thousands of race cars every weekend using Metric calipers or an aftermarket equivalent, if you consider circle track to be racing.
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