In reply to ultraclyde:
Sorry if I was being unclear, but I wasn't looking to make money on these cars. Some people (like myself) prefer to drive a wide range of cars instead of sticking to one and modifying it. Selecting cars that are not going to put you in the hole once you sell is a good way to do that.
When you buy that CamCord, you can expect a more-or-less predictible rate of depreciation. When you go used, you hope that wildly variable maintenance expenses don't eat up what you saved. So far, I've come out ahead even with risky purchases (multiple Esprits, an XJR Jag) but haven't exactly hit any home runs. When you start factoring in EVERYTHING with an older car, it always seems to add up if you're the type (who here isn't?) to use depreciation as a way to get something interesting. Interesting cars come with interesting problems.
The Elise is pretty good by most accounts but God help you if you punch a hole in the clam because you let your quick jack equipped FFR roll into it (not that I have ever done anything like that more than, say, twice).
Any air cooled P car, even 928s are holding steady or creeping up a little. Ferrari 308s/308gt4s, mondials. LBCs are pretty steady. I'm curious how low boxsters are going to get.
what sucks here in Ohio is that if you trade in your old car for $20k and buy a $30k car, you get a credit on your taxes for the amount of the old car. You then only pay taxes on that $10k.
I wish that they would allow you to the same freedom if you sold a car outright and used that $$ to fund another used car - say give a 30 day window to make that purchase.
Too bad us broke-ass bottom feeders don't have the same lobbing power as the dealerships and automakers.
oldtin wrote: Any air cooled P car, even 928s are holding steady or creeping up a little. Ferrari 308s/308gt4s, mondials.
True, but with those cars there's a much larger chance of big $$ maintenance or repairs that can put you in the poor house. That's why I like American and Japanese cars, the parts and repair costs are much lower than your typical European car. Though I do dabble in BMWs, I tend to pick the older, simpler ones.
Regarding taxes, maintenance, and other costs being factored in, of course you should do that. And no, you aren't going to actually make any money. Look at Wheeler Dealers, TV show or not, once you factor in Edd's labor, they lose money on every single car. But the point is to be able to enjoy cool cars for a while without having to go broke. I don't think the $30k CamCord is a good comparison to an Elise or 911 or whatever. But a $30k Mustang GT, BRZ/FR-S, NC Miata, or other enthusiast car (I realize I'm taking some liberty with the pricing) is, IMO.
Tom_Spangler wrote:oldtin wrote: Any air cooled P car, even 928s are holding steady or creeping up a little. Ferrari 308s/308gt4s, mondials.True, but with those cars there's a much larger chance of big $$ maintenance or repairs that can put you in the poor house. That's why I like American and Japanese cars, the parts and repair costs are much lower than your typical European car. Though I do dabble in BMWs, I tend to pick the older, simpler ones. Regarding taxes, maintenance, and other costs being factored in, of course you should do that. And no, you aren't going to actually make any money. Look at Wheeler Dealers, TV show or not, once you factor in Edd's labor, they lose money on every single car. But the point is to be able to enjoy cool cars for a while without having to go broke. I don't think the $30k CamCord is a good comparison to an Elise or 911 or whatever. But a $30k Mustang GT, BRZ/FR-S, NC Miata, or other enthusiast car (I realize I'm taking some liberty with the pricing) is, IMO.
Exactly. If I purchased a BRZ, all things considered, I probably couldn't unload it after a couple years without taking a major hit in depreciation. Compared to an AP1, which I could re-sell for close to the same price.
Unless, of course, you want the new car warranty, new car smell, etc, etc (can of worms I'm NOT opening up with this thread)
mazdeuce wrote:Woody wrote: Buy 911s now.Where were you 15 years ago when the 70's cars were still obtainable? I could have used that advice then.
Prison.
I was going to say the same thing as mfennell about the Elise - they might not be depreciating, but it's pretty easy to lop off a huge chunk of its value in a moment of stupidity or carelessness, so coming close to breaking even on one over a year or two might be feasible but isn't without risk. I'd put older 911s in this same category, if you get lucky and nothing expensive breaks while you own it you might break even or even end up ahead, but if you need an engine rebuild...
I'll second the suggestion of the AP1 S2000. I have owned mine for 3+ years and hopefully I will sell it at a minor loss from purchase price (and could probably get above my purchase price with a better-timed sale or more aggressive marketing). Overall cost to own has been extremely low, as it's also been the most reliable car I've owned.
I cannot find any s2000 near 7500 that I doesn't have a body kit/rims/blacked out lights etc. 
I still say you can minimize the risks of a major failure by buying carefully, making sure you have records, etc.
Joshua wrote: I cannot find any s2000 near 7500 that I doesn't have a body kit/rims/blacked out lights etc.
I'm sure you won't. Even a few years ago, I'm stunned that spoolpigeon did. If you do, it's almost certainly been wrecked. Even repairable wrecks seem to be worth at least 6 these days.
PM me if you want the best price in the country on a great looking, bone stock mechanically excellent '02+ AP1 :).
I wonder were the 94-96 Impala SS falls? Still love those cars.
Joshua wrote: I cannot find any s2000 near 7500 that I doesn't have a body kit/rims/blacked out lights etc.
2002 Honda S2000 - $7995 http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ctd/4134592116.html
Rusnak_322 wrote:Joshua wrote: I cannot find any s2000 near 7500 that I doesn't have a body kit/rims/blacked out lights etc.2002 Honda S2000 - $7995 http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ctd/4134592116.html
I just saw that one yesterday. Rattlecanned black wheels, 177k miles, probably still underpriced, I'll be surprised if it sticks around more than a few days (unless there's a red flag that isn't being disclosed in the ad).
I think the interesting question is really where in the depreciation cycle the best value actually is. I was contemplating this recently. The sw20 and z32 are at the true bottom of their depreciation cycle, but they are also 20 years old and past the point of a reliable DD. Even if I buy the car for 3-6k, I could easily double that in repairs over the course of a few years. On the other side, an s2000 or nc miata will cost me about $10k right now, I can get 5-10 years of relatively trouble free driving without breaking any major components and still sell it for $5 k when I am done. So, is it better to buy the car at the bottom of the depreciation curve that may nickel and dime you or at 5-10 yr mark when you still have some reliability on the original components?
How long you want to own it plays a big factor. However most of the AADD type would be ok with a new car every few months.
Heck, you could probably buy "right" in one part of the country and sell it for more in another and get a price little vacation out of it. Enough of a "profit" might pay for the whole trip.
For example, buy an Elise down here in Texas around December, when the temp drops below 40 for a week. Enjoy it over the "winter" through the spring and sell it up in Chicago for a little more. Then spend a weekend in Chicago and fly home.
Now, where to find a "spare" $30k.....
-Rob
S197 Mustangs are still holding strong, unless you're willing to settle for a V6 stick, then you can get them for as little as 5 grand.
I've been looking at these, now available for 5 large or even less if you don't care about body condition:
Not a sports car, but a solution to "what tow vehicle to get" that won't bore you to tears.
My S wasn't perfect when I got it for $7500, so don't get me wrong. It needed a top ~$500, the front bumper had a huge crease in it from where someone backed into it, had some ugly aftermarket wheels on it, cheap lowering springs, and the ABS light was on.
I replaced the top myself, found some stock wheels, found stock springs, and repaired the ABS system. Turns out whoever put the lowering springs managed to pinch the wires to the wheel speed sensor on the front left. 2 minutes with a soldering gun and no more ABS light :)
Even after all that I was still in the car for under $9k. Sure the super nice ones are well above $10k, but if you're willing to put in a little work on one you can save yourself quite a bit.
sanman wrote: I think the interesting question is really where in the depreciation cycle the best value actually is. I was contemplating this recently. The sw20 and z32 are at the true bottom of their depreciation cycle, but they are also 20 years old and past the point of a reliable DD. Even if I buy the car for 3-6k, I could easily double that in repairs over the course of a few years. On the other side, an s2000 or nc miata will cost me about $10k right now, I can get 5-10 years of relatively trouble free driving without breaking any major components and still sell it for $5 k when I am done. So, is it better to buy the car at the bottom of the depreciation curve that may nickel and dime you or at 5-10 yr mark when you still have some reliability on the original components?
I had this exact debate not too long ago about motorcycles. I bought my SV for two grand, and it's been running like a top ever since I got it. Never needed a lick of repairs or anything past routine maintenance (heck, I'm still on the spark plugs I bought it with). Conversely, people buy older bikes for a grand thinking they are getting a good deal, but it will nickel and dime you to death with all of the misc. stuff it needs.
Only problem is, some people don't have the patience to save enough for the nicer bike, so they buy something cheap and spend money along the way keeping it running.
So I think you're right in that it only works when the car is decently new, has enough of an enthusiast following that the depreciation has leveled out early, and eat the deprecation instead of repair costs.
Plus, if you're going to be losing the same amount of money, I'd rather be driving the nicer car while I'm doing it 
W30 MR2? They are like $6000 and I don't see them going any lower. Lots with 2ZZ swaps at that point it's high reving like a S2000, except 2100lbs (lighter than Aw11) and mid engine. 944s, no way they get lower. any alfa stuff. GTV6 and Milano are above 944s. Milano only if Verde trim, any lesser trim is cheap. Z32 300zxtt? I keep thinking they will not go lower but then they do. I don't understand that but i'm betting they are at rock bottom right now.
I feel that any 90s J car that is $20k+ right now is going to collapse in about 5 or more years. That happened in Canada once imports became legal there. A supra or a FD rx7 is 1/3 the price as here and cooler stuff like R32s, R33s, and rally based cars like Celica GT-4, Pulsar GTIR, STIs and EVOs will be available as well as many others I did not name like the Japanese super-wagons from Nissan and Mitsubishi and that's just the Japanese models, not even considering cars like the Delta Integrale.
Free to own and practically free to buy list:
AW11 MR2 - seen ones for almost $1000 in good shape. Corolla FX16 - same, like all those honda civic hatchs you see around except with 4age Starion - when I see them sold it's usually less than $5k even if in perfect condition. Z31 300zxt - same as starion except much more common. 924s (the S car not 924s in general) - when i see them sold which is rarely they are around aw11 MR2 prices. S12 200sx - looks like the Corolla GTS (ae86) everyone likes unfortunately i know nothing about this car other than it uses a lot of Z31 parts. non-turbo RX7s, cheap and all over. Generally any turbo 80s car no matter how rare if it's from a common make aside from FEW exceptions can be found this low ( exceptions: luxury brand Euro or Turbo V6 GM products). Mustang SVO? Saab 9000? Volvo? All those can be found in good shape for pennies. RX7 and Supra turbos may be higher but probably can be found below $5k. I've seen 1st gen Celica Alltracs for this low, that version of that car doesn't seem to get much love.
For some reason MK2 and MK3 supras have a much wider variety in price. I see them anywhere from around the same or less than a Z31 to above 944 price range at around the same condition. For MK3 i'm talking about turbo cars specifically.
So after reading all this I'm thinking what enthusiast cars could I buy with say 6 grand, drive for a year and break even, or even profit some? What would be you guys suggestions, I have 6 grand burning a hole in my pocket. 
t25torx wrote: So after reading all this I'm thinking what enthusiast cars could I buy with say 6 grand, drive for a year and break even, or even profit some? What would be you guys suggestions, I have 6 grand burning a hole in my pocket.
Well, keep it for 18 months, but...
Buy 2nd Gen MR2 Turbo this fall, sell it in spring of 2015. If you buy and sell well you should clear enough spring-time sportscar markup to cover tax and title and cover a few oil changes too.
6k? With that budget, would a major unexpected repair put you in the poorhouse? If so, I'd look at clean Miata's, If not, an E36 M3. An E30 or very clean early GTI would work as well, or even a Type R Integra. A C4 Corvette would be decent at $6k A super-clean Foxbody. (That's what I'd get - I've always wanted one for a while)
Personally, I buy cars with issues at a steep discount and count my time as of little value. Find the necessary parts online or similar and use my 'sweat equity' to add value to the car over the course of ownership. This worked on several BMW's, a Corvette, and now the 964.
It isn't really that hard. As ShadowSix said, time the market.
I had a 99 Miata that I bought or $6,200 out the door (incl. tax tile and license) from a dealer, so you know that I didn't get the best deal ever.
I got it with 80k miles on it and sold it with 150k miles on it for $5,500 almost 5 years later.
Look at the lack of effort that people put into selling cars (even dealerships).
My car was black, so I detailed the crap out of it and made the paint look as good as I could. Put lots of pretty pictures and a good description in the ad. I posted on multiple craigslists and Miata boards and sold it to someone from out of state.
The key is not just what car, but to buy well and just as importantly to sell it well.
In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn:
You... have not priced Integra Type R's recently.
+1 for a minty early GTI though!
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