Datsun310Guy said:2. Most people want a more practical car and are not as brand specific.
Sounds like here, too. This is why every automaker that isn't Honda or Toyota, and every car type that isn't a sport utility pod (or a truck made by the Big 3) is on life support.
I liked the Chevy SS a lot, and I'm not sure the Charger is a direct comparison. I drove a Charger and a Chevy SS back to back- the Chevy SS felt much more planted and nimble. I just looked it up- the wheelbase on the Charger is 5 inches longer.
The Chevy SS felt like a four door Camaro (which is exactly what I want, TBH).
volvoclearinghouse said:Keith Tanner said:I understand his point - I don't completely agree with it, but it's a common refrain - but I think it's different than yours. You described the merging of cultures, that's not gentrification.
Not...exactly. When a strip mall full of chain restaurants opens up in a small southern town and the mom and pop joints shu down, that's more along the lines of gentrification. Or the orange and blue stores take out Drucker's General Hardware. Or the world becomes obsessed with pod-shaped high-riders in place of a wider pallette of car types. It's not merging cultures- it's one culture wiping out the others.
Gentrification doesn't quite mean the development of any monoculture, but I can see what you're getting at. It's just not the term I would have chosen.
Back on topic - I lived in Oz for a few years over a few different visits. Watched Brock race the 1000 live in TV. First drove a car there. I still nurse an odd appreciation for the VH Commodore that comes from being influenced at a formative time.
And I can't remember ever riding in a Holden, never mind driving one.
It was always a mater of when, not if..... Once the manufacturing ceased, the writing was on the wall, despite what was being said by gm/Holden headquarters.
It's sad to lose such an iconic part of Australian motoring, but once they stopped making true, Aussie built Holden's, they were doomed
Just read this article which gives a good overview of what killed Holden - Holden's Demise
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to Tom_Spangler :
When I had an Accord I saw my first SS on the highway and was wondering if a new Malibu SS had been released cause it looked good. But it wasn't a Malibu......
I've never really understood this frequently used argument against the SS. Compare an Audi A4 with an A6 or A8 and see how different they look at a glance. Now do the same for BMW's sedan lineup. And again for Mercedes'. They all have similar design language and brand identities, and nobody says "I totally would've bought that A6/5 Series/E Class, but it looked just like the boring A3/2 Series/A Class, so no dice!"
This is an SS:
This is a Malibu from the same era:
They've got some similarities, but they're clearly different in many ways, including overall proportions. Besides being sedans with two tiered grilles and bowtie badging, what's the same?
The joke is essentially that they went from looking "aggressive" with the G8 to looking like your every day FWD GM sedan. Sure, the SS looks a bit different from their typical line up, but that's only because car people are aware the SS even exists. Ask anyone else and they possibly think of a Camaro when they hear SS and couldn't really tell the difference if you line it up next to a Malibu.
No idea why GM didn't stuff the LT1 in the final year or two in to the SS. It's not like GM didn't have a history of doing that previously with the GTO/G8; 04' GTO was the LS1 and '05/6 was the LS2. '08 G8 was the GT with the L76 and '09 was that AND the GXP with the LS3.
Literally nothing, even the bowtie badge is subtly different. But this is America, and once some ad-man said this:
somehow looked just like this:
All bets were off. I bet half the public these days couldn't pick their vehicle out of a lineup..
FuzzWuzzy said:The joke is essentially that they went from looking "aggressive" with the G8 to looking like your every day FWD GM sedan. Sure, the SS looks a bit different from their typical line up, but that's only because car people are aware the SS even exists. Ask anyone else and they possibly think of a Camaro when they hear SS and couldn't really tell the difference if you line it up next to a Malibu.
Pontiac was a more aggressive brand though. Look at the G8 as it was intended to look in Holden trim:
They added a vertical divider in the grille of the G8 and some hood vents. Did those small changes make the G8 significantly more aggressive?
Car guys be like:
Top one- Not aggressive enough!
Middle- Ugh, 4 doors?! At least it's got nostrils in the hood!
Bottom- MaLiBu!
In reality, the SS was understated in the same ways that something like a BMW M5 or Audi S6 might be. A generally boring car with some small cues thrown in to clue in certain people that know what to look for while it floats under the radar for the majority of people that see it. They're supposed to be inside secrets for discerning people, not shouty things that alert everybody at the stop light of what you've got. The only reason it gets a hard time while the others get a pass is because of the badge.
In reply to STM317 :
I'd venture the kind of guy who would buy one would WANT a shouty car. Subaru for instance made "understated" STis and people lined up none deep for them - the STi buyer wanted the gills and flaps and wings and wongs and slats.
STM317 said:In reality, the SS was understated in the same ways that something like an M5 or S6 might be. A generally boring car with some small cues to clue in certain people that know what to look for while it floats under the radar for the majority of people that see it. They're supposed to be inside secrets for discerning people, not shouty things that alert everybody at the stop light of what you've got.
Methinks you give GM too much credit. There's no way they were setting out to make a sleeper. Their whole goal was to sell the Commodore here with as little effort as possible, hence making it look like every other Chevy on the road.
06HHR said:
Thank you.
There were also earlier ads that compared the Granada directly to Mercedes saying it was as good, or better when it came to ride quality and interior sound - verified no less, by engineers, in Germany.
Even as a kid I thought, you've got to be kidding, and I've never been able to take For seriously since.
Give GM credit for getting out of a business that's not making them money. In the past they probably would have hung on until it was far too late and thrown all kinds of good money after bad
Tom_Spangler said:STM317 said:In reality, the SS was understated in the same ways that something like an M5 or S6 might be. A generally boring car with some small cues to clue in certain people that know what to look for while it floats under the radar for the majority of people that see it. They're supposed to be inside secrets for discerning people, not shouty things that alert everybody at the stop light of what you've got.
Methinks you give GM too much credit. There's no way they were setting out to make a sleeper. Their whole goal was to sell the Commodore here with as little effort as possible, hence making it look like every other Chevy on the road.
Oh, I'm not doubting that what we got in the US was just the cheapest way to placate unions and fulfill production contracts while having something to run in Nascar. They literally just put a bowtie in the grille and sent it over, but the original Commodore was an understated sport sedan that I think fits the mold of the others I mentioned:
The only difference in appearance between what was designed for AUS as a Holden and what we got in the US as a Chevy was the badging. So if it looks like all the other Chevys on the road, blame Holden's designers.
They added nostrils and "dual" rear exhaust on the '05 GTO because no one was lining up to buy a flat hood and a single exhaust on the '04s.
I believe when I was on the LS1GTO forum, original owners had stories of dealers optioning the '05 hoods on to their old '04 stock to try and move them and it worked.
Is it minor in terms of aggressiveness? Yes. Did it work? Apparently so.
The difference between Chevy selling an SS that looked like a Malibu and BMW selling M3's and M5's that look similar to run-of-the-mill 3 and 5 series cars, is that the 3 and 5 series cars are still somewhat aspirational cars, whereas a Malibu is what you end up driving when your credit score doesn't ring up high enough over in the SUV/ Truck sales department.
"I'm sorry, sir, I don't think you're quite Chevy Traverse material, but let me hand you off to Dale here and he can show you some very nice Malibus that are more befitting of your rung on the economic ladder"
Say what you will of BMW, but a BMW looks like a berkeleying BMW, and that sells. It does not look like some HyunKiaHondToyoChevForDodNiss-whatever.
STM317 said:Tom_Spangler said:STM317 said:In reality, the SS was understated in the same ways that something like an M5 or S6 might be. A generally boring car with some small cues to clue in certain people that know what to look for while it floats under the radar for the majority of people that see it. They're supposed to be inside secrets for discerning people, not shouty things that alert everybody at the stop light of what you've got.
Methinks you give GM too much credit. There's no way they were setting out to make a sleeper. Their whole goal was to sell the Commodore here with as little effort as possible, hence making it look like every other Chevy on the road.
Oh, I'm not doubting that what we got in the US was just the cheapest way to placate unions and fulfill production contracts while having something to run in Nascar. They literally just put a bowtie in the grille and sent it over, but the original Commodore was an understated sport sedan that I think fits the mold of the others I mentioned:
The only difference in appearance between what was designed for AUS as a Holden and what we got in the US as a Chevy was the badging. So if it looks like all the other Chevys on the road, blame Holden's designers.
Yeah and if they'd not tried to charge 50 grand for something that looks like a basic family sedan, they might have done better. IIRC the Caprice version was also a bit longer, and offered the V6. A 30 mpg RWD family car might have had more market potential.
Talking styling in regards to americannized Holdens is kinda funny. The GTO is a 1995 design, regardless of it being sold here over a decade later. I think it's aged pretty well. Just like the 1995 design Dodge Avenger I used to own.
At least with the GTO they had the good sense to leave it well enough alone instead of butchering it into early-00's modernity.
I forgot about the Avenger, i always thought those were cool. The GTO really reminded me of the 97 and up Grand Prix Coupes:
My old black 2006 GTO, 6 speed was a really great car in so many ways. Shame GM is back to cost cutting again, as Holden was one of their gems. I know some people did not care for the styling but that was one of the benefits. The average person thought it was just another Pontiac Gran Prix or similar, but it packed the punch of a Corvette!
volvoclearinghouse said:The difference between Chevy selling an SS that looked like a Malibu and BMW selling M3's and M5's that look similar to run-of-the-mill 3 and 5 series cars, is that the 3 and 5 series cars are still somewhat aspirational cars, whereas a Malibu is what you end up driving when your credit score doesn't ring up high enough over in the SUV/ Truck sales department.
"I'm sorry, sir, I don't think you're quite Chevy Traverse material, but let me hand you off to Dale here and he can show you some very nice Malibus that are more befitting of your rung on the economic ladder"
Say what you will of BMW, but a BMW looks like a berkeleying BMW, and that sells. It does not look like some HyunKiaHondToyoChevForDodNiss-whatever.
So it's got nothing to do with the styling, and everything to do with the badge and the marketing of the brand. In most of the world, a C class is a taxi, but in the US it's some aspirational status symbol. Basically all thanks to marketing.
Keep in mind that the commodore was in reality a rwd family sedan. And a very large amount of its life it was in reality based on Opels. Hence why the conservative styling.
Keith Tanner said:DeadSkunk (Warren) said:Holdens haven't been manufactured in Australia for a while anyway.
Well, two years. You make it sound like it's been a couple of decades.
Australian tastes are different. They have different roads than you find elsewhere, and a taste for not-giant pickups. Holden died when they stopped manufacturing there, but losing the engineering is really going to hurt.
And you can't have Holden track footage without Brocky getting interviewed in-car during the race while manhandling a Commodore with a big 05 on the door. You know, THE race.
And turn the sound up to hear the legendary Torana A9X.
Hits the nail on the head, Keith. I'm an Australian, and we do have unique and generally entirely pragmatic tastes in vehicles. There's a reason why diesel Nissan Patrols and Toyota Lancruisers were popular there for so long - because the tarrain and country is harsh and distances are large - often hundreds of miles between towns and fuel stops. We don't want huge North American sized trucks that suck twice the fuel that the aforementioned vehicles use. The Holden sedans and wagons were perfectly suited for Australian families that didn't need a four-wheel-drive vehicle, and would eat up the miles on long road trips. Same goes for the Ford Falcons of the era. Then as fuel prices started climbing (with a federal tax law that mandated an at least 3 cents per litre fuel tax increase every calendar year), the popularity of other models with smaller engines started to increase. Simultaneously, there's also been a trend there towards more SUV-style vehicles that's also cut into Falcon and Commodore sales. Every other Ford and Holden there are sourced from overseas so you couldn't really call them Australian cars anymore.
The average Aussie bloke still loves a traditional RWD layout. Cashed up Aussies used to buy the HSV's and the like; now I suspect they'll purchase V8 Landcruisers (which cost a small fortune down there) or European RWD sedans, and I suppose the Kia Stinger popularity tends to support this.
Vigo said:Talking styling in regards to americannized Holdens is kinda funny. The GTO is a 1995 design, regardless of it being sold here over a decade later. I think it's aged pretty well. Just like the 1995 design Dodge Avenger I used to own.
At least with the GTO they had the good sense to leave it well enough alone instead of butchering it into early-00's modernity.
This belongs in the " Is aero killing styling" thread
Oldsmobile, Saturn, Saab, Pontiac, Hummer and now Holden. And all the people that worked for or supplied those companies. The GM ship with a swath of destruction in it's wake. At least GM was able to sell off Opel instead of closing it. 
In reply to noddaz :
Don't worry, Hummer is coming back as an EV
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