The F150 EV Lightning thread

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm willing to bet those solar panel tonneau covers will come with a decent amount of cost

frenchyd said:

In reply to Steve_Jones :

Fair enough for now. See you in the future. 

I'm already there, I have a Lucid Air on the way :)

In reply to yupididit :

How many tanks full  of gas do you figure? 

In reply to frenchyd :

How ever many tanks of gas this trucks requires? 

In reply to yupididit :

To keep it simple assume $100 a tankful. ( that's 2 gallons short of full@ $5 a gallon )  Let's see mine has 82,000 miles @20/ gal.    That's $20,500 so far. 

The solar bed does not make a meaningful contribution to range because the rate at which it charges the battery is pitiful.  We're talking a claimed 2 miles of range per hour (which I don't actually believe, the math doesn't work out, it's likely more like 1 mile/hour).  Anyone who's concerned about the 300 mile range of the Lightning is not likely to be swayed by adding another 15 claimed miles of range (in reality probably more like 5-7) by putting a solar panel tonneau on it.  Certainly it's not going to fix the problem SV rex talked about.

And sure, you could put solar panels on there to get a few dollars' worth of charging over the weekend.  I dunno what this tonneau costs, but I'd be surprised if it's less than $2500 (I mean, a quality non-solar tonneau cover is a grand), and at that price I doubt it'll ever pay back.  It would make much more sense to put that money into increasing the size of the solar system on your house.

frenchyd said:

In reply to yupididit :

To keep it simple assume $100 a tankful. ( that's 2 gallons short of full@ $5 a gallon )  Let's see mine has 82,000 miles @20/ gal.    That's $20,500 so far. 

Gas price is a continuously variable number and so is your gas mileage, especially over 82k miles. That solar panel will not always get the same amount of sun as well so it's charging isn't something we can bet on either. And we don't know the price of this part. This math is based on, I'm assuming, a very Frenchy specific scenario.

Either way, you don't have to try to convince everyone that the vehicle will fit every need because it will not. 

One day I do hope to get one but not anytime soon. MSRP + $20k "market adjustments" will see to that. 

In reply to yupididit :

I'm simply pointing out the economics.  
my real reason for being an advocate is kinda ironic considering a lifetime of working with ICE.  
  The idea that electric vehicles are so simple compared to ICE.  Pistons that have to go up, stop and down stop and repeat I order for any power to be made.  
     EV 's don't require so many parts. No pistons,  con rods, valves, camshafts, ignition, flywheel, ( or torque converter)  transmission. 
    Plus peak torque for an EV is exactly where it's needed, to get the vehicle running.  Not at 4800 rpm.  
      I'm fascinated  by steam engines.  The whirling con rods on the side driving the wheels faster and faster, things shuttling back and forth , spinning balls with controls in them opening and closing things. But I accept that diesel electric (hybrids)  are far more efficient and powerful.  And pure electric trains such as subways can be the most efficient of all trains. 
      In the foreseeable future I can see power implanted in the roads and transmitted up to the car above without contact, just like I can recharge my smart phone  or tooth brush without connecting any wires to it. 
 

 So I'll continue my fascination with V12's and their horribly obsolete  pistons and valves.  Those of us who care about such  ICE's can keep them and use them. Until like the horse they are finally put out to pasture   

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm glad to see you've come around. You spent years arguing against EVs. 

The Lighting, Rivian, and others are amazing vehicles.  I have long thought pickups were the easy vehicles being overlooked for EVs, and I am thrilled to see it happening. I hope to own one someday.

Since construction professionals buy a lot of trucks, these threads seem to often default to saying how great EVs would be for construction.  Since it's my area of expertise, I am just trying to point out that it's not as easy a fit as many people think.

Most people who don't work directly in construction don't understand how daily life can function without decent electricity (or water, or sewage, or air conditioning, or heat, or decent office environments, or coffee areas, etc, etc, etc).  We live it every day.

The last three pages have been back and forth's about range while towing and the usefulness in niche applications. No vehicle is going to serve all use cases, being electric doesn't change that. It may make it really good at some things or really bad at others but I wouldn't tow my camper with my CR-V, if my need was to long distance tow all the time I wouldn't buy this truck. It's about capturing the center of the curve, not the fringes and it looks like Ford did that well. Is it going to tow 35' enclosed trailers to tracks 500 miles away? No. What percentage of perspective owners are going to do that? It also sucks to drive your F-350 diesel dually to the grocery store, you can do it but if that was your regular use case you wouldn't want to.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

llysgennad said:

There are/will be solar panel tonneau covers that charge up to 900w/hr.

That isn't all that much in the scheme of things, is it?

The small battery on the Lightning is 98 kwh.  At 900 watts, you'd need 108 hours of sunlight to fully charge it from zero.  That's at least a week.

The surface area on a car or truck just isn't big enough for solar charging on the vehicle to make a significant difference in charging/range/etc.

 

Counterpoint:

If it charges 10 hours a day, that's 9Kw. Using Ford's numbers of 260-320 miles of range with a 98-131 Kwh battery, that is 2+ miles/Kw. So if, like me, your daily driving is less than 18 miles, the solar cover would allow me to NEVER have to plug in. Ain't that something. No house wiring, no solar needed at home.

llysgennad said:

If it charges 10 hours a day, that's 9Kw. Using Ford's numbers of 260-320 miles of range with a 98-131 Kwh battery, that is 2+ miles/Kw. So if, like me, your daily driving is less than 18 miles, the solar cover would allow me to NEVER have to plug in. Ain't that something. No house wiring, no solar needed at home.

Except it's not.  As with most things that sound too good to be true, this one isn't.  For one thing that 900 watt number is fantasy.  You can look up power production per square foot on with Google and multiply it by the bed area of a Lightning and it winds up being about half of that.

Second, that number above assumes the panel is mounted on a roof, at an ideal angle, facing south.  Putting it flat on a truck bed you lose more efficiency because it's not facing the sun at any time.  It's also a "peak" number, meaning it's only true for a few hours a day around noon in the summer months with a cloudless sky.  Clouds cut your power production a lot, morning and evening hours produce a lot less power, and the numbers in the winter are pretty dismal even if you don't have snow covering up the panels.

Computing all of this is complicated, but the solar power companies have done it for you and the average for the US is 1500 kwh per year for each kw of panel -- since this is about a 500 watt system, you're going to get 750 kwh/year.  How much do you think that solar tonneau is going to cost?  I'd be surprised if it was much less than $3K.  Average price per kwh in the US is 15 cents, it's going to take a long time to pay back $3K at $112.50/year.

You don't even save money on the home charging equipment because if you're happy with 500 watts then you can do that just fine with a normal 110v extension cord.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Except I'm seeing claims for higher numbers on some of the new flexible  solar collectors.   
  To be fair That's only claimed.   I suppose we'll see in time  if actual numbers wind up being the same as claimed. 

In reply to SV reX :

I was surprised to see one this morning.  My first one.  It's lower than my 4x4  and maybe even lower than then a regular pickup. ( wishful thinking on my part?) 

    The surprising thing was it was pulling one of those little construction site  trailers (about 6x8?)  same company on both. Ill.  Plates. North bound on the freeway, a lot faster than the school bus. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Not surprising for a small contractor to be using the Lightening, they make money a few ways and driven’ around in a truck ain’t one of them.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Computing all of this is complicated, but the solar power companies have done it for you and the average for the US is 1500 kwh per year for each kw of panel -- since this is about a 500 watt system, you're going to get 750 kwh/year.  How much do you think that solar tonneau is going to cost?  I'd be surprised if it was much less than $3K.  Average price per kwh in the US is 15 cents, it's going to take a long time to pay back $3K at $112.50/year.

 

 

It actually isn't difficult to math at all.

Solar puts out roughly 1000w/ sq meter

Solar panel efficiency you can ballpark at 20%. 

You can look up a solar insolation map of the country which will tell you the amount of sun (in hours) the surface of the earth recieves in that area, on average.

Here in NC, that number is ~4.5-4.75 solar hours.

A F150 Lightning is 232″ L x 80″ W, or approx 12 Sq. Meters If you can cover every upward facing surface with solar.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 12 = 10800 watthr/day

If you estimated just bed, roof, and hood, a fair square surface area estimate may be 1sq meter on hood, 1 on roof, 1.5 on bed for example = 3.5.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 3.5 = 3150 watthr/day

EDIT:  I see there is a published 900w tonneau cover.  That just replaces 3 of the terms in the euqation above lol.

900 * 4.5 = 4050 wh/day

Rons said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Not surprising for a small contractor to be using the Lightening, they make money a few ways and driven’ around in a truck ain’t one of them.

You must be new here.  It obviously shows any contractor can use it for any job, and people here just don't get it.

I don't know why some people are so hung up on this solar tonneau. It is just an interesting accessory, not even specific to the Lightning. At least 3 OEMs are apparently looking into it, including Rivian. So what if it's only 500 w/hr? (FYI 2 different companies are claiming 500-1000 watt covers, at 22% or better efficiency). It's still free energy after purchase. Charging at home 0-100% will cost $20 plus tax every time (131Kw@ $0.15 per) Double that if you're using a commercial charger.

If somebody offered to come to your car, at your home/business and put in 1 gallon of gas EVERY DAY, for as long as you own the car, would you do it? In exchange for buying a big barely-visible $3k sticker to put on your roof? Payback is less than 2 years at current prices. Doesn't matter if you get 5mpg or 50, it's still free gas.

We should talk about the Ford Lightning, what a cool name.

Steve_Jones said:

Rons said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Not surprising for a small contractor to be using the Lightening, they make money a few ways and driven’ around in a truck ain’t one of them.

You must be new here.  It obviously shows any contractor can use it for any job, and people here just don't get it.

Steve,   
   This is like when cars were new,

  Nothing wrong with my old horse.  It may not be as fast but at least it fits in the stall without the need for a "garage"

 Plus you have to "buy" gas.  Mine eats from the pasture and side of the road all summer long  I harvest hay and corn for the winter.   And every few years I get a free new colt.  The Vet barely costs anything to help deliver it.  Last time I paid him in chickens.  
   
I really don't mind shoveling manure.   Or putting new shoes on it every 2 months.  

ProDarwin said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Computing all of this is complicated, but the solar power companies have done it for you and the average for the US is 1500 kwh per year for each kw of panel -- since this is about a 500 watt system, you're going to get 750 kwh/year.  How much do you think that solar tonneau is going to cost?  I'd be surprised if it was much less than $3K.  Average price per kwh in the US is 15 cents, it's going to take a long time to pay back $3K at $112.50/year.

 

 

It actually isn't difficult to math at all.

Solar puts out roughly 1000w/ sq meter

Solar panel efficiency you can ballpark at 20%. 

You can look up a solar insolation map of the country which will tell you the amount of sun (in hours) the surface of the earth recieves in that area, on average.

Here in NC, that number is ~4.5-4.75 solar hours.

A F150 Lightning is 232″ L x 80″ W, or approx 12 Sq. Meters If you can cover every upward facing surface with solar.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 12 = 10800 watthr/day

 

If you estimated just bed, roof, and hood, a fair square surface area estimate may be 1sq meter on hood, 1 on roof, 1.5 on bed for example = 3.5.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 3.5 = 3150 watthr/day

 

EDIT:  I see there is a published 900w tonneau cover.  That just replaces 3 of the terms in the euqation above lol.

900 * 4.5 = 4050 wh/day

You forgot one prime advantage.  It keeps snow out of the bed.  Oh and Rain off things in the Bed. Plus it  covers up things you may be carrying  in that bed. Out of sight•••••. 

I really think EV's are well enough proven to be completely justified.  Since I live in a very upscale neighborhood there are plenty around because these people tend to be leaders not followers. 
     Most Americans really aren't forward thinkers.  They wait until things are safe or the norm.   
   When I was a salesman I learned very early on that anticipation of gain  is never as strong as fear of loss. 
      Until party conversation becomes about how much more expensive ICE's are to own there won't be a mass shift over. 
  However once it begins to happen manufactures  will be able to greatly raise prices.  

ProDarwin said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Computing all of this is complicated, but the solar power companies have done it for you and the average for the US is 1500 kwh per year for each kw of panel -- since this is about a 500 watt system, you're going to get 750 kwh/year.  How much do you think that solar tonneau is going to cost?  I'd be surprised if it was much less than $3K.  Average price per kwh in the US is 15 cents, it's going to take a long time to pay back $3K at $112.50/year.

 

 

It actually isn't difficult to math at all.

Solar puts out roughly 1000w/ sq meter

Solar panel efficiency you can ballpark at 20%. 

You can look up a solar insolation map of the country which will tell you the amount of sun (in hours) the surface of the earth recieves in that area, on average.

Here in NC, that number is ~4.5-4.75 solar hours.

A F150 Lightning is 232″ L x 80″ W, or approx 12 Sq. Meters If you can cover every upward facing surface with solar.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 12 = 10800 watthr/day

 

If you estimated just bed, roof, and hood, a fair square surface area estimate may be 1sq meter on hood, 1 on roof, 1.5 on bed for example = 3.5.

1000 * 0.2 * 4.5 * 3.5 = 3150 watthr/day

 

EDIT:  I see there is a published 900w tonneau cover.  That just replaces 3 of the terms in the euqation above lol.

900 * 4.5 = 4050 wh/day

To add pictures, here's the output of my array on a sunny day during one of the longest days of the year. You can clearly see how the output rises and falls as the sun moves across the sky.

These are panels that are almost completely flat and completely unobstructed so they're a pretty good equivalent to a pickup truck bed. The array is suffering some clipping issues that's taking a few offline at peak production times so it's underperforming slightly (that's the dent in the curve at around 11:30 am). The array is rated for 16.4 KW so it's roughly 20x bigger than the tonneau. If we take it as representative (that's a big if), it means the solar tonneau would have generated about 6.39 KWh (6393 Wh) that day. At the rated power consumption of the most economical variant of the F150, that's about 7.5 miles.

In January, the array's output is a bit less than half that.

The real question is, though - given the choice of parking your truck in the sun versus the shade, where will you park your truck while you're working? ;)

frenchyd said:

I really think EV's are well enough proven to be completely justified.  Since I live in a very upscale neighborhood there are plenty around because these people tend to be leaders not followers. 

It's not a leader vs follower issue.  Electric vehicles are more expensive to buy up front, charger install costs money and takes room, etc.  It's tough to install a charger in an apartment or a rental house vs a house you own.  It's a "have money" vs "Don't have money" issue. "Upscale" people have electric vehicles more than others, simply because they can. If it's not charged enough for the trip, you grab another car from the garage that day.

frenchyd said:

Since I live in a very upscale neighborhood there are plenty around because these people tend to be leaders not followers. 
     Most Americans really aren't forward thinkers.  They wait until things are safe or the norm.   

That is some classist BS right there.