The Joy of Bad handling race cars!

They've always been with us. Beasts that demand you to five them to do what they won't do naturally.  Insist on absolute focus every second  you're driving them.  
    Old Porsche 356 that required  absolute attention to prevent lift off oversteer.  Allards that had steering geometry  so bad it required  steering input based on which arc of the suspension it was in. With Brakes that could never last even a short sprint race.  Lotus 30 with a chassis so flexible  no two corners were ever the same ( and 40 with 10 more mistakes added on. 
  Even my Black Jack  with an impossible short wheelbase of 88 inches a track of 50 inches and a locked rear end to add to its demands.  
 Triumph TR3 with  an impossibly high roll center  and a  narrow track to compound it.   Triumph Spitfire with swing axles that do all the evil things swing axles do.  
  Well I could go on and on and on.  
       The really bizarre part is how all those flaws endear   such loyalty by their masters. 

A friend is totally perplexed of my love of vintage motocross bike. My reply is "sure they have weedy forks, questionable brakes and wayward handling but when you fall off you're going way slower"

I think Porsche 356s off throttle handling is fun.

There is joy in these cars; as the limits (by modern standards) are low enough most drives can find the outer edge and keep the car there for laps on end.

I recall there was so much joy in driving a Cheetah that one ride worth of joy was all anyone could handle. Joy in that case manifested itself in handling that changed from oversteer to understeer and back, all in the same corner. The lucky drivers could be described as 'overjoyed'

The temperament aka difficulty to drive may be what made them great???

More modern terms, I have and had a 97 mustang and a 95 Miata, both autocrossed in ESP/CAMC and STS. Miata was fun because it was telepathic, you think about doing the right thing and it does it. The mustang, grab it by the scruff of the neck and MAKE it do it. 

Very different drives, rewarding for different things. Both fast cars.

Apexcarver said:

More modern terms, I have and had a 97 mustang and a 95 Miata, both autocrossed in ESP/CAMC and STS. Miata was fun because it was telepathic, you think about doing the right thing and it does it. The mustang, grab it by the scruff of the neck and MAKE it do it.   And sometimes spin out anyway.

 

Very different drives, rewarding for different things. Both fast cars.

FTFY.

(Just a joke)

Thinking about all the fun I had spinning the Vipers them setup. I will pass on the woolly handling, I just want to have fun and not break myself or a car as I get older.  

Have you guys considered rallycross?  All cars have challenges on mixed surfaces.  There is no perfect setup.  My Subaru was incredible in faster sections and a Mr Plow in the slow stuff.  With all the weight over the nose when braking at high speed it was easy to spin too.  Dirt requires constant attention.

I started racing at 14 on the high banked dirt track 1/4 mile race track. Hustling a straight 8 Buick.  Graduating to a caddy powered 55 Chevy.  Then on to sprint cars.  
  All of them were tail happy and only the sprint car had fast enough steering  to really push.  
   The owner of the sprint car used a vise grip taped to the axle to pinch off the right front brake.  That was the crutch I needed to get the tail end swinging  out enough  to start using the whole race track.  
 Once I figured that out, off came the Vice grip and my lap times actually broke the track record.   From that point on I learned to use The Whole  corner  and not some line  to go fast.  
      Basically I learned how to steer with the throttle which is the real "trick" to driving powerful cars.  The guy who bought my BlackJack special never figured that out and as a result all he had was the power, he had to slow down to follow the "line"  then let the power take him to the next corner. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Dirt is all about weight transfer, hence left foot braking. With enough left foot braking on dirt, even an Audi won't understeer. 

You know what's really fun? Making a bad handling race car handle well. There's no pride in leaving it handling badly.

I hd a friend that raced a Genie (Canam car built by Huffaker powered by alloy Olds V8). I took him out for a drive in one of my Triumphs (forget if it was a TR2 or TR3) on a local winding road.  Like many racers (including myself) he got antsy with someone else driving and swore I was trying to kill him.  I tossed him the keys and told him to drive back.

By the time we got back, he swore the car was trying to kill us both!

I've witnessed some of the other cars you mention - Allard J2X was particularly entertaining to watch (but not to drive, I expect). And the bathtub Porsches certainly did have quirks (they were in the same class as my MGA) although they did seem to have excellent drum brakes - my car was better with 4 wheel discs, but they didn't seem to have a fade problem with their drums. 

Unlike cars like the Sunbeam Tiger  - hey, stick a Ford V8 in so it will go fast and then use 13" wheels and small brakes (all they could fit in those wheels) so they can't stop - well, nor for long!

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Dirt is all about weight transfer, hence left foot braking. With enough left foot braking on dirt, even an Audi won't understeer. 

Brakes aren't used in racing on dirt.  Not until it gets dry packed hard and starts to build up a little rubber .   Before that the car is steered with the throttle.  

Keith Tanner said:

You know what's really fun? Making a bad handling race car handle well. There's no pride in leaving it handling badly.

An Allard J2X has a swing front axle.  And recirculating ball steering.   If you Jack it up. You'll see the bump steer in it. 
     The company that is making the "continuation" Allard J2X  has a corvette engine ( LS )  not the  Cadillac or Chrysler Hemi, Olds, common in the early 50's. and the suspension unequal length A arm  nicely sorted out.  
   It's like MiGi's that are fiberglass body's on a VW chassis.  Just not the same thing.  
     

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Dirt is all about weight transfer, hence left foot braking. With enough left foot braking on dirt, even an Audi won't understeer. 

Left foot braking is to keep the boost up, though.  The Audis understeered relentlessly regardless of what the driver was doing with the pedals 

When driving a front or all wheel drive car, I made a point of never left foot braking.  I never saw how removing momentum would benefit, and if you are not using the brakes to remove momentum you are just dragging them and wasting speed.  Or trying to keep the turbo spooled.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You use the brake (with steering angle) to redirect the momentum around the outside rear via weight transfer. A text book example is a Scandinavian flick. Track out, stab the brake and turn in. Your back end will rotate and you won't understeer. 

frenchyd said:

Keith Tanner said:

You know what's really fun? Making a bad handling race car handle well. There's no pride in leaving it handling badly.

An Allard J2X has a swing front axle.  And recirculating ball steering.   If you Jack it up. You'll see the bump steer in it. 
     The company that is making the "continuation" Allard J2X  has a corvette engine ( LS )  not the  Cadillac or Chrysler Hemi, Olds, common in the early 50's. and the suspension unequal length A arm  nicely sorted out.  
   It's like MiGi's that are fiberglass body's on a VW chassis.  Just not the same thing.  
     

So the fun is fixing the swing front axle. Try to make it work better, and if not then build something better. I'm not talking about building a new car that kinda sorta looks like something old, but taking a specific vehicle and making it work better.

The first time my MG hit the racetrack, it had some evil handling characteristics. I worked on taming them instead of just driving around them, and the car got better and more fun to drive as a result. And I learned.

Keith Tanner said:

You know what's really fun? Making a bad handling race car handle well. There's no pride in leaving it handling badly.

That is fun as well but my take on this is we are talking about here is cars with inherent flaws.

My Datsun with leaf spring beam axle rear suspension handles great for what it is but climb into a Miata it's terrible by comparison. My car moves around alarmingly on the rear suspension; and this is with the exact suspension set up Electromotive used to win several SCCA RunOffs.

My Showroom Stock C Miata  won 5 SoPac Championships as well as a RunOffs podium; clearly a good car but in SSC trim the rear suspension cornered on the bump stops. You had to drive around it and there is an aspect of fun to that.

Yes it's faster and easier when a car instantly does exactly what it's supposed but again I also like a car that needs you as as a driver to a continuously adapt.

I was talking to a driver of a 1912 race car; he said once you turn in and the chassis winds up the steering effort is so high that you cannot change your line once you select it. I may not want to drive that car bit I understand why someone would revel in it.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Do you think Electromotive tried to improve the handling at all, or just shrugged and said "well, it's just inherently flawed, I guess we need a hero driver"?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Of course they improved it and I've actually had a chance to discuss this with Trevor Harris at the BRE open house.........but it still sucks relative to IRS and you have to drive around it. 

EDIT: if you've never driven a 1200, you have drive them like a complete animal (not dissimilar to a Mini).

For me we're not talking about ultimate lap times but different types of challenges. 

If we're talking some unruly flexibilty flier that that's not fun. Especially if you're trying to drive it 11/10ths.

Disclaimer: never raced - good or bad handling. 
The street cars that I remember driving in my younger days, the ill handling ones are the ones with my fondest memory's. By average modern race cars, everything I've ever driven is ill handling , so ...

in 86 I had a brand new CRX si. Quick car for the times. I could drive my friends MGB, more quickly, do to my comfort level!

I agree wholeheartedly with K. T. But I understand exactly what F is feeling!!!

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Do you think Electromotive tried to improve the handling at all, or just shrugged and said "well, it's just inherently flawed, I guess we need a hero driver"?

I knew exactly what to to improve the handling on my BlackJack. The main part ( a limited slip differential  instead of my welded one) would have cost me a few hundred dollars and take about 6-8 hours to properly install.   
  Had I done so  virtually everyone would have thought it was brilliant improvement.  But it wouldn't be the same car.  
      It would have been like eliminating the bump steer on an Allard J2X  or trailing throttle oversteer on a Porsche 356.  
   My favorite thoughts of my car is throwing it in sideways  and judging it perfectly  to flatfoot it out of the turn.  The precise judgement that called for. Doing that in a crowd unaware of the precision demanded  and gaining positions in spite of the handicap.  
  My favorite memory ( and video ) was doing that in front of Sir Stirling Moss and beating him into turn 1 in The Bahama's 1986. Then 3 corners later because of sand kicked onto the track by Steve Kline losing that position back to Sir Stirling as I was forced to use the whole track and part of the shoulder  to keep from spinning while Sir Stirling's more conservative line  kept him out of the sand. The power of his Aston Martin DBR2 pulling him cleanly away.  
   
There is a difference between vintage racing and ordinary racing.  The difference requires not changing the nature of what made them originally. 

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

That is very similar to how I rotate the rear of AWD Subies at speed.  I do it with my right foot though.  A quick stab of the brakes at speed makes the rear super light and easy to rotate.  You can also easily over rotate in that condition.  The trickiest corners are slow ones after a high speed section.  The new Subaru has a hand brake so that will be something new to try.