The perspective of a Challenge judge...

Duke said:

SVreX said:

Just because they had a little fun with the theme doesn't mean it wasn't a real effort. 

As I said, that stuff is fine... as a side dish.  If it becomes the entree, like it appears to have with LeMons, I'll go somewhere else for dinner.

This is wandering off topic, but I just wanted to say - you are deeply mistaken about LeMons. Yes the themes are ridiculous and there's an awesome party circus atmosphere at the class judging on tech day (Friday), but the racing is real racing and there's nothing but racing on track.

In reply to dculberson :

Well, that's good to hear as well.  The coverage, even in GRM, tends to emphasize the cartoonishness, which I have almost zero interest in reading about.

That being said, I'm a reader and not even an attendee, let alone a participant, so now that I've said my piece from that perspective, I'll leave it alone.

alfadriver said:

Driven5 said:

alfadriver said:

Mostly because I'm more competitive than social.  

So on top of all of the hand wringing, you're anti-social too?

what's your point?  

That being willfully ignorant and a skilled fabricator of excuses is not exactly the model of a 'competitive' spirit.

Ok- how 'bout we try to keep this on topic?

I was trying to be a resource for people trying to understand the Concours a little better. 

 Paul and Pat, Let me Say Thanks for Joe and Jamie,  the Scoobi Subi doo is serious and next year it will be sorted out. I was a bit freaked out by the 'Theme' with costumes but you must admit it was cute. I myself don't even dress for Halloween. but the car should turn heads next year and though it will have a 'Theme' it will doo better. Not my car and not really more than a Helper I was happy for them.

I will mention that in the olden days 25% of your concourse was "Paint".  My feeling is that was meant to encourage photogenic entries for pretty magazine coverage.  This year it seemed like only a few cars were really pretty.  (The black 300 and red BMW come to mind.)  I am slightly concerned that "ugly" could become the standard. 

Anyone remember the Hong Noor "Petty car"?  That car had perfect paint inside and out.  Obviously the paint supply money could have been used to make the car go faster instead, but "Paint" had to be considered for the concourse score.  In a sense you were forced to set aside budget money for pretty. 

I like to bring a car that other people would also like to own , just like we do.  Last year a Pro driver asked if we wanted to sell the car.  That made my day.  :)

                                                          Copy that!

alfadriver said:

Never mind.  I've beleaguered my point enough. 

On behalf of grammar Nazis everywhere, I would like to point out that the word you're looking for here is "belabored."

Off topic again. 

1988RedT2 said:

alfadriver said:

Never mind.  I've beleaguered my point enough. 

On behalf of grammar Nazis everywhere, I would like to point out that the word you're looking for here is "belabored."

On behalf of vocabulary nazis here its not a grammatical issue...

Besides beleaguered means"surrounded with trouble or problems," which may have been his intended sentiment.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Acknowledged.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

1988RedT2 said:

alfadriver said:

Never mind.  I've beleaguered my point enough. 

On behalf of grammar Nazis everywhere, I would like to point out that the word you're looking for here is "belabored."

On behalf of vocabulary nazis here its not a grammatical issue...

Besides beleaguered means"surrounded with trouble or problems," which may have been his intended sentiment.

On behalf of Nazi Nazi's everywhere, I'll point out that Nazi's are not really especially strict about following rules, they pretty much just hate people other than their own kind, and that label doesn't really work when trying to point our grammatical or vocabulary issues.

What was the topic again?

Fow what it's worth, I had a question that sprang to mind when someone mentioned the Petty car. I recall Poopshovel telling us how they swapped all the bolts for cad plated replacements and other sweet details like that. Would something like that effort be considered execution?

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/stop-calling-yourself-a-grammar-nazi

In reply to tuna55 :

Yes. Swapping all those bolts is definitely Execution. 

But 'ya gotta tell the judges, or they don't know (Presentation). 

In reply to SVreX :

Also point out every he headed bolt and Phillips screw is perfectly indexed in same orientation.

tuna55 said:

Ovid_and_Flem said:

1988RedT2 said:

alfadriver said:

Never mind.  I've beleaguered my point enough. 

On behalf of grammar Nazis everywhere, I would like to point out that the word you're looking for here is "belabored."

On behalf of vocabulary nazis here its not a grammatical issue...

Besides beleaguered means"surrounded with trouble or problems," which may have been his intended sentiment.

On behalf of Nazi Nazi's everywhere, I'll point out that Nazi's are not really especially strict about following rules, they pretty much just hate people other than their own kind, and that label doesn't really work when trying to point our grammatical or vocabulary issues.

 

What was the topic again?

 

Fow what it's worth, I had a question that sprang to mind when someone mentioned the Petty car. I recall Poopshovel telling us how they swapped all the bolts for cad plated replacements and other sweet details like that. Would something like that effort be considered execution?

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/stop-calling-yourself-a-grammar-nazi

I love this forum.

 

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/stop-calling-yourself-a-grammar-nazi

Gah!  More politically correct drivel!  I'll stick with "grammar nazi."  It's punchy, and it makes the point. 

Let's not let political correctness kill the art of comedy. 

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/blazing-saddles/267731/mel-brooks-blazing-saddles-could-not-be-made-in-modern-pc-culture 

I do apologize for causing this thread to veer off topic.   I promise not to poop in this thread again!

spin_out said:

 

I will mention that in the olden days 25% of your concourse was "Paint".  My feeling is that was meant to encourage photogenic entries for pretty magazine coverage. 

Anyone remember the Hong Noor "Petty car"?  That car had perfect paint inside and out.  Obviously the paint supply money could have been used to make the car go faster instead, but "Paint" had to be considered for the concourse score.  In a sense you were forced to set aside budget money for pretty.

There really is no excuse to have an ugly car. Painting the yellow BMW cost us maybe $100 back then (Ebay paint kit). Probably a bit more now. You can roller paint a car with Rustoluem from the hardware store for well under $100. As a guy who owned a roller-painted race car that no one could believe was painted that way (and it was my first attempt) it absolutely can be done.

Unless you are going for the overplayed 'patina' look there is no excuse for having a crappy looking car. Have some pride...and gee, maybe even score some more points!

In reply to ddavidv :

I hear you (and personally agree with you), but I think you are reflecting your biases. 

What if you are trying to build a rat rod?  I think a rat rod is a legitimate expression of automotive love. (Note, I didn't say "ratty rod". These are rarely executed well).  How about a rally car?  Wouldn't it look right with mud sprayed on the fenders?

You like shiny clean things. Me too. But that doesn't make them the only things. 

The Concours rules do not have the word "paint" in them. They also don't have "pretty".

I am generally of the opinion that a top finish in Execution would have great paint, but the rules don't say that, and I won't rule out other options. 

I love "Roadkill", both the tv show and the magazine. I get and applaud what they are about.

GRM and the Challenge to me have been an elevated version of that. While they revel in failures and gross interiors GRM leans towards actual, useable performance cars. Not spit-n-shine trailer queens but actual useable machines that won't be an embarrassment at a local cruise night.

Perhaps my perception of what the staff wants is out of touch. Do the readers appreciate an Insight that is highly effective but looks cobbled together more or less than a tidy, well-presented car that proves very capable but may not excel at any one thing?

I'm not saying one is more right than the other. It is just how I perceive where GRM as a magazine falls in the spectrum of literary automotive choices.

The judging parameters are what they are and those striving to win need to cater to them. However, my sideline observation is that the rules and results may be a bit at conflict with what the balance of the editorial year depicts on the pages. A light criticism, yes...but mostly an observation.

ddavidv said:

...Do the readers appreciate an Insight that is highly effective but looks cobbled together more or less than a tidy, well-presented car that proves very capable but may not excel at any one thing?

I said something similar in another challenge thread, but yes- I appreciate the Insight more than a perfectly clean but less radical vehicle.  I have no idea if I (28yr old engineer who wrenches on and races cars and motorcycles) am representative of GRM's target market, but to me the idea that the concours is  judging the whole build with cleanliness and visual perfection as only a fraction of the package is wonderful- I can appreciate a good paint job, consistent panel gaps, and polished metal, but they're not things I consider important; but a mid engine conversion?  Making a bunch of parts work together well when they were never meant to?  That interests me, in terms of the thought, fabrication, and development process, and I'll read 10 pages about it before I read a single paragraph about how to shim a fender to get the perfect gap at the edge of the hood.

Again, not saying I represent anyone other than myself. 

ddavidv said:

There really is no excuse to have an ugly car.

There's one REALLY good excuse IMO: Time.

My car (truck, whatever... silly utes...) was only acquired a month before the Challenge, and only ever even first ran at a reasonable level Thursday night. Sure, I could have used the intervening month between when I got the Rampage to sand it down, primer it, and paint it up all nice- but then I wouldn't have had a running vehicle, and the Challenge would have been exponentially less fun. I'll take 'having a running vehicle that I can compete with' over 'having a shiny, pretty vehicle that doesn't run' any day of the week.

Next year, when I've had a year to work on it and not 1 month, and am starting with a running vehicle? Yes, it should look a whole heck of a lot better- but also should perform a heck of a lot better too.

But then, I believe the 'Don't Judge Me' option was pretty much made with vehicles like mine in mind...

In reply to ddavidv :

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Your definition is different from mine is different from paul is different from tim, and on and on and on ad infinitum.

i appreciate a clean shiny car.  I appreciate a clean shiny car underneath that has a barn/field find body.  

this event is about editorial content.  That's what you need to keep in back of mind through the entire process.  It's all for Tim and staff to get stories.  

There is also pretty, and racecar pretty.  I spent over 100 hours on the body of my car and it came out racecar pretty.  From 5 feet racecar pretty photographs just as well as 100 point restored pretty.  You just can't see the differences enough to sweat over them.  Last year aussie steve brought an immaculately painted car, nobody could see the level of paint skill in the magazine versus anything else that was painted prior to the event except stampie's bedlined q45, well, because stampie.  And in the pictures in the magazine that honestly just looked flat black, you couldn't see the texture.  

I probably could bodywork and paint a show car, but i choose to use most of my time to go faster or turn better.  I'm considering not painting next year's car because we're already 4 months into the fabrication and I honestly don't see what time i'll have to paint it.  So you'll have to settle for some played out patina going for the overall win.  

I have all the parts to finish my GT/X  Vette but will have most of a year in the body work, The Fiero is a Stop gap to ensure I can Bring Something to the Show. it was a running and Racing? car a several points in it's life but still will have Fresh Paint next year( the Fiero).  I agree if you buy a car 1 month before the show It might not be enough time to dress it Up .....or Down. So bring a car that looks Good and Feel Better about it. If the Vette looks like I want Finish will be a part of it again.    for a 50 footer

Let me start by saying that I am going to wander a bit. The Tech car was/is/ and probably always will be a hideous looking car. But just look at what they did. Most of us can't do that. They won the autocross and finally got down to a decent time in the drags. Most of us can't do that either. So, their car was ugly. Look beneath the skin to find out what makes that car awesome. 

Now,  for all of you hating on the Scooby van just because we painted it like a cartoon. If you had a 900 lbs van that looked like that, how would you paint It?  C'mon it's pretty much a no brainer. Like Ashyukun, we did not hear our van start until 6:30 the night before the challenge. Then we loaded and drove 8 hours to get there. Got 2 hours sleep and headed to the track. The first time it pulled under its own power was Friday afternoon on its way to tech inspection. We took that van from rusty parts to competing vehicle in 6 weeks. Arrived completely untested, and beat half of the pack, with no clutch.  So yeah we had a cartoon theme for the car show, big deal. If you think you can do better, quit complaining on the forum, bring a car and try to beat us. Just remember, Now we have a running car and a lot more than 6 weeks to get it dialed in and upgraded. 

Sorry, that was my off topic rant. We got 8th in the car show. Better than we expected. Our bondo work looked like crap, and our paint had runs. But we had a great time. See you guys next year. 

If it takes 100+ hours or most of a build year just to achieve 'racecar pretty' results, then 'racecar pretty' must not mean what I thought it meant.