The perspective of a Challenge judge...

Now,  for all of you hating on the Scooby van just because we painted it like a cartoon. If you had a 900 lbs van that looked like that, how would you paint It? 

Personally?

Like Ashyukun, we did not hear our van start until 6:30 the night before the challenge. *SNIP*  Just remember, Now we have a running car and a lot more than 6 weeks to get it dialed in and upgraded. 

Just need to clarify- mine had fired over about a week prior to the event, it just ran like crap (and on 3 cylinders, we discovered) until I got to the event and had the help of other competitors. And I'm right there with you on the last one- I ran the autox with an alignment of 'let's push the front suspension as far negative as we can' and the drags with tires that refused to hook up and no turbo for most of both of my runs on the strip. Next year it will be sorted, tested, and... OK, it's a 1982 Rampage, 'competitive' is a massive stretch- but 'faster' at the least.

FYI as an outsider who dreams of someday competing in the challenge, who looks forward to every magizine issue and who has competed in other events with a concourse bit thrown in with speed events (Optima USCA)

It's very refreshing to see at least one judge (possibly more I lost track) in here offering his perspective, answering why he judged things certain ways and generally being open about how things are run. This is much different than the behind closed doors "well we just don't want you to win so we gave you a lower score" of other series.

I gather that GA Tech won or scored very well in the concours which is where some of the complaints are stemming? Also, without directly putting words into SVreX's mouth I have ascertained that had a car with equal innovation/presentation showed up with better looks it would have scored higher.

Again outsider perspective but spitballing here, had some of pervious year concours winners shown up the GA Tech car may have scored lower as well. The judging is not conclusive off all challenge cars ever and merely a representation of this year. Not to detract from any car in attendance but we were already told that nobody got a perfect score, so folks did leave points on the table with this years judges.

So thanks to SVreX for offering this insight behind the scenes, I'm soaking up as much info as I can as a perpetual over prepper.

Running out of time is a justifiable reason for not having a decent looking car. Just don't expect a good Concours score. 

I cant speak to the details, but let's assume GA Tech pegged the scale on both Innovation and Presentation.  That leaves Execution, and appearance falls mostly inside Execution.

There were only 10 possible points for Execution. Tech's total score was 22.75. So, it is reasonable to assume that Tech lost over 20% of their potential Execution score because the car wasn't pretty. 

I'd say the scoring system works.  

I'd also say that anyone could have beaten them, and if you are gonna bring crappy looking cars that don't photograph well or create good magazine content, you will not win the Concours. 

SaulGoode said:

Now,  for all of you hating on the Scooby van just because we painted it like a cartoon. If you had a 900 lbs van that looked like that, how would you paint It?

Please don't interpret my remarks as "hating on" the Scooby van.  I have a specific editorial concern that has more or less been explained and put to rest.  That's all.

A challenge team 2 years ago brought one of the most awesomely-themed cars ever presented, and that simple theme reinforced the entire "racecar built by car folks" atmosphere without in any way interfering with the car's function as a car.  That same team then butchered the same car into something that was entirely theme-driven... and thus rendered it incapable of being driven safely in competition.

I'm not saying that's what the Scooby van is.  I'm saying it's a general danger when the theme becomes the driving force of the build , or of the Challenge.  No more, no less.

In reply to klodkrawler05 :

Thank you. 

As I noted, I am a competitor first. I know the Concours has confused many people over the years, and I just figured I could share my experiences from the other side to help people understand. 

(Not to mention I had fellow competitors texting me within 30 seconds of the announcement GA Tech had won the Concours while I was still sitting in the banquet hall asking if I had lost my marbles!). Lol!

Driven5 said:

If it takes 100+ hours or most of a build year just to achieve 'racecar pretty' results, then 'racecar pretty' must not mean what I thought it meant.

My car was pulled from a field, it required lots of massaging and complete removal of old tractor paint before i was willing to lay paint. There are 20+ hours in the hood, as it was left against a tree to die and warped in the sun. Spoiler also took around 20 hours itself, handmade from coroplast over a pine buck and fiberglassed prior to filling/sanding/filling/sanding/painting.

Maybe my car is better than racecar pretty or maybe i have unreasonable expectations of my work.  Like i said, everyone's definition is different.  

Patrick said:

Driven5 said:

If it takes 100+ hours or most of a build year just to achieve 'racecar pretty' results, then 'racecar pretty' must not mean what I thought it meant.

My car was pulled from a field, it required lots of massaging and complete removal of old tractor paint before i was willing to lay paint. There are 20+ hours in the hood, as it was left against a tree to die and warped in the sun. Spoiler also took around 20 hours itself, handmade from coroplast over a pine buck and fiberglassed prior to filling/sanding/filling/sanding/painting.

Maybe my car is better than racecar pretty or maybe i have unreasonable expectations of my work.  Like i said, everyone's definition is different.  

I understand the Presentation component was not your forte, but the judges needed to hear this. 

May I suggest a list, some practice, a recorded message, a PowerPoint, or recruiting someone else to make the Presentation?

Public speaking is everyone's nemesis, but you left a lot on the table. 

We judges really wanted to help when we could, but if we never hear the story or the details, we won't know. 

I know you earned points for your theme, and I helped bump you a little with another judge for your workmanship (neat wiring, etc), but we didn't know about the condition when you bought it, or the time spent massaging, etc. 

In your case, it would have made a big difference. 

In reply to SVreX :

Totally get this, and I'm not a public speaker.  Honestly, if he wasn't busy Probing people I wanted to recruit John Welsh.h

next year I want to make posters with the talking points.  I forget what I've rehearsed in the moment.  I was good until the timer started, then it all flew away.

There will always be a disgruntled person here or there as long as there's a subjective element to the competition. Truth be told, even if it was purely performance based, there'd still be bones of contention. It's a credit to the organizers and participants that the naysayers are relatively rare. And I don't mean that as a dig at the disgruntled. I've had my grunts dissed as well, and as long as people aren't asses about it, it's just a part of the party.

As someone who's never been to the party but kind of hopes to one day, I've found this open discussion highly educational. Thanks to all involved.

Patrick said:

Driven5 said:

If it takes 100+ hours or most of a build year just to achieve 'racecar pretty' results, then 'racecar pretty' must not mean what I thought it meant.

My car was pulled from a field, it required lots of massaging and complete removal of old tractor paint before i was willing to lay paint. There are 20+ hours in the hood, as it was left against a tree to die and warped in the sun. Spoiler also took around 20 hours itself, handmade from coroplast over a pine buck and fiberglassed prior to filling/sanding/filling/sanding/painting.

Maybe my car is better than racecar pretty or maybe i have unreasonable expectations of my work.  Like i said, everyone's definition is different.  

So you don't just have a high standard of work, but you also started with a car that had to be partially 'restored' just to get it to 'racecar pretty'...That's a bit different to me.  From what SVreX is saying, I would think that maybe including a good 'before' pic or two next to the talking point about the RQR (Race Quality Restoration) might also be beneficial.

First, a big shout out and thank you to SVREX and the other judges for their time and obvious efforts to be as fair, impartial and objective on something as subjective as the concours.

Second (and perhaps more importantly), having peer judges seems inherently more equitable than having GRM staffers as judges.  It removes the (unwarranted) suggestion that the editorial sraff might play favorites.  

In reply to SaulGoode :

I love what you all did with the van. I want the be first in line if it ever comes up for sale.

In reply to Cotton :

Sorry, the line has already formed. Alan McCrispin (Our pro driver) called first dibs. 

I spent as much (or possibly more) time fixing body damage and then painting as I did on improving the suspension of the Miata or fabricating the aero bits and sway bar. Two reasons for that. I think a car should look it's best at the Challenge and the car will be put back to stock and driven regularly next summer. Most cars at the Challenge are built specifically for that and have no secondary use, then they get sold, cannibalized for the next build, etc. We all do our best with the time, dollars and skill sets we have. I'm just glad the event exists and I got to play !

SaulGoode said:

In reply to Cotton :

Alan McCrispin (Our pro driver) called first dibs. 

Alan is a kept man?!?

In reply to Driven5 :

I am still unsure of your question/motive. we have Had racecars built for us that could have been Show cars (as far as a Late model's Go) they cost about 50 grand, For me with my Tools and Skills that would be 1000 hrs' for one man (ME) I may have Half that in it Time wise But only Hundreds of Dollars Not thousands. So I want a car to be Proud of that is damn Fast. To me Race Car Pretty is IS Show Quality. I Won't show up with Spray can Flat Black .I may seem an A-hole but I'm a Proud one. If it won't Show, We won't Go.

In reply to DrBoost :

they do have to pass a safety check and that's fine with me 'cause in Ga. to buy a Tag you must First pay the Back Tax's My Stuff has been off the road for Many Years.  Oh Yea and an "Impact Fee" aka registration. that alone would be a Grand for me.

SaulGoode said:

In reply to Cotton :

Sorry, the line has already formed. Alan McCrispin (Our pro driver) called first dibs. 

Hey I'll take 2nd!

Fun conversation.  :-)

Coucours, no matter how defined, is somewhat of a moving target.  With new judges, it becomes even more of a moving target.    When the update regarding how the concours would be judged came out last year, I was not crazy about the "presentation" component of the judging.  It seemed to lessen the emphasis on what readers could build by adding in the component of how they could present.  Powerpoints, display boards, public speaking....many of us (myself included) do enough of that in our real lives.  I like to keep my make believe race car builder/driver life separate from real life.   :-)

Opinions on how the scoring played out are somewhat meaningless unless you are a judge.  I think Paul and the judging team invested their time and judged the entries on how they interpreted the scoring system.  Think about that for a second...how they interpreted the scoring system.  That doesn't mean that everyone will interpret the system exactly the same, which is why this is always a moving target.  My interpretation may be different that Paul's, or any of the other judges.  Does that mean they did it wrong?  No....that means they judged the builds based on what they were looking for. 

Paul, I think you and the team did just fine....especially since it wasn't me that got suckered into spending the day listening to us meatballs talk about the junk we build!

In reply to DrBoost :

Go read the rest of the thread.

In reply to Pat :

Presentation has existed for several years.  Ever since the current rule set was adopted. 

You are right, it's subjective. But there is a great deal that is not interpretation. 

A bone stock Miata is not innovative. That's pretty clear. 

The specific words used have specific meanings. "Creative" doesn't mean "I just bought this cheap and brought it. I didn't do anything". (Yes, we judges heard that from more than one competitor).  We may be interpreting WHICH car is MORE creative when we look at Patrick's Z, or Andy's Q, but a car that lacks creativity lacks creativity. That's not really an interpretation- it's just reading the rules. 

The BEST thing competitors could do is to read every word of the rules very carefully, then ask themselves, "Is my car creative?  Is my workmanship good?  How is my attention to detail?"  

Very few competitors (perhaps none) considered every descriptive word in the rules carefully. The judges did. For every car. 

this is my 4th challenge and I think this year was the best concourse in terms of scoring accuracy, which is a great step in the right direction. 

In reply to SVreX :

I thought I did a really good job this year of every part of concourse to the best of my limited time and ability. I’m glad you guys gave me my highest score ever.

Obviously my car wasn’t perfect but it photographs well.