The realization of speed.

Wanted to ask the legends here about braking zones. You guys that are great at late braking and trail braking. And it's in reference to the amount of speed you have before you hit the sissy pedal.

I know you probably aren't using a mph or rpm to gauge each corner, so for those that are good at this I would think you are using that perception of speed to gauge when your braking zone is.

My problem is I don't know how to acquire this. If I were to do a track day and overcook every corner to find out where that limit is (in my particular vehicle) I would be asked to leave the track... that is, if I even had a car left after bouncing it off another racers, a barricade, etc.

So how do you perfect this technique without killing someone or bending a car? Surely an old country backroad is also a No-No.

You think your doing well at braking until you get out braked. Then you talk to that guy afterwards and he tells you that this other guy standing over here is incredible at it.

I would also think it would be bad to try and mimic the guy you are following, since he would possibly be driving a car that is leagues beyond my junk.

I know a driving school would help, but is there a cheaper way to teach myself?

Unless you are majorly blowing it, overshooting the braking zone a bit is just going to put you off the line for the corner... but maybe try this somewhere slower first? The "blow every corner" technique is exactly what I used to do on my first run in AutoX and RallyX, it's a lot less harmful when there are just a few cones to hit, and I always found it easier to dial it back than to try to build up to it.

Karting is good too, even motorcycle racing will teach you some of the same skills- you just need to develop a feel for it in a controlled environment where you can repeatedly work on the same corner, it doesn't have to be incredibly high speed to be beneficial.

I'm not one of "Those Guys" but remember to pick ONE point of your driving to focus on 110% on each session.

Run some kind of data logger (Harry's Lap timer or the like)

I'm trying to figure it out too. Turn 11 at Sonoma isn't one you want to mess up so I'm building that up slowly.....

a few suggestions:

1. Often people will use a static point rather than MPH or RPM to start braking, and they learn the points for each track. The classic ones are the numbers on the side "3,2,1,etc", but people will find all kinds of stuff. a distinctive mark on the wall, a crack in the pavement, etc. I'm not sure how I feel about this because static point to point driving actually hinders you as you speed up (i.e. the best braking point at the end of the straight is different if you enter the straight with 5 mph more because you used a better line on the prior turn). But it is consistent for most drivers. Many drivers will "plateau" because they have gotten so good at hitting their fixed points.
2. Just try to guess your own speed while on the freeway, without looking at the speedo. Say, I'm going 58 mph right now, then check. do this often enough and you will get really good at sensing speed. Still not the only answer on track as the best braking point is different for different speeds.
3. You are VERY right not to follow other folks on track. The point is to pressure them into making a mistake and pass them when they make it, not to follow them off track and let the guy behind you go by.

At some point, all of this is probably one of the LAST things to focus on about track driving. The time you spend on track between first touching the brake and fully releasing it is often VASTLY overshadowed by the time you spend turning and accelerating. and basically that means that where and how you start braking is MUCH LESS important than where and how you release the brake pedal. Focus on the release first.

You ppl are amazing.

It is always easier to pick up speed in the middle of a corner than it is to get rid of too much.

While I don't completely subscribe to the principle of "100% gas or 100% brake", don't coast up to the corner. Throttle to brake NOW, not soon.

Compare vehicles. IT2 Neon (me) vs. IT2 Si Civic will have me hoping I've gapped the Civic on the straight, because my car will neither stop, nor turn as well as an equally prepared and driven Civic.

There is a big difference between blowing a corner and going off, most of the time. I have blown a corner when I have compromised my exit line and speed. Off means I had a nap.

It takes three laps to create a bad habit, and 100 to get rid of it. (Stock car saying). When you are learning a track, stay open minded and talk with other drivers if you are getting eaten up somewhere.

Just creep up on it. It cones with seat time.

You should be using a point on the track as a reference not a speed. Not surprisingly the braking markers that some tracks have are ideal for this. If there are no markers then you need to pick a reference like a pavement marking, rock tree or a sign. Don't use something that can move, like the pretty girl in the white tank top. I try not to use skid marks for braking points as the one your looking for can become hard to find as other marks are added throughout the day.

Make a few laps to identify some spots for each corner to start with. You'll be making coarse adjustments initially so you can probably make adjustments on multiple corners on each lap at first while you're getting up to a consistent speed. Once you've got a rhythm down and are running consistent laps then pick a corner to work on and go half a car length deeper. Keep going deeper until you are having trouble getting the car down to the apex or you're scaring yourself and then go back a half a car length.

You didn't ask this but optimizing your braking point is probably the last thing you should be working on in your search for speed either as a rookie or when learning a new track. It's a bit counter-intuitive but it's best to work the corners backwards. Think about where you want to be positioned on exit, then where you want to apex so that you can get on the gas as early as possible and hit the exit spot and then where you need to turn in to hit the apex. Once you're running a consistent line and getting on the throttle as early as possible you can start sneaking up on the optimal braking point. If you have the rest of the corner more or less optimized and you go in too deep then you'll miss the apex and have to wait to get back on the gas while the car goes wide. If you're not sure where the turn in and apex are supposed to be and you go in too deep things can get expensive.

Creep up on it is the answer. Big braking zones will have brake markers (5, 4, 3, 2, 1). If not, there will be cracks in the pavement, asphalt patches, dirt splotches, oil stains.

First lap through you brake at the dirt splotch in front of the crack. If that puts you too slow on corner entry, you brake at the oil stain on the other side of the crack for lap 2. If that puts you too slow, for lap 3 you brake at the green rumble strip just past the oil stain on the other side of the crack. Ooops! Overcooked it, need to back off to just past the oil stain.

As you learn the track you'll need to constantly adjust these brake markers, because fixing the exit on the previous corner might gain you 2-3 mph and screw everything up royally. But it's always a game of trial and error, you just start with a safe point and work your way forward.

I don't really have anything helpful to add. The two track days I've done certainly aren't enough to be anything like an authority. I will say I probably gave up a bit of time by braking earlier than needed, not because I needed to slow down that early but working up to full confidence in my brakes as they got race-hot.

Too many videos of people standing on the chicken pedal at the end of a big straight and realizing there was nothing there (apparently this isn't a big problem in Miatai but still, cowardice served me well I brought home a shiney side up car)

In reply to KyAllroad:

Amen. "Live to race another day!" Has always been my motto.

Trackmouse wrote: Wanted to ask the legends here about braking zones. You guys that are great at late braking and trail braking. And it's in reference to the amount of speed you have before you hit the sissy pedal.

When starting out, you pick a visual cue for each corner and then start chipping away at it. Brake at the 3, etc. Trouble is that your eyes aren't in the right place if you're looking AT the countdown reflectors, but instructors have to start you somewhere so you can calibrate yourself.

It's important to learn your car's ability to bleed off speed, and how much you can carry through a corner. Once you're in the ballpark (after a few laps or maybe one session,) you really need to be looking ahead.

If you're looking to the apex, through the turn and down the track, you'll have the spatial awareness to know when to brake.

Car with marginal brakes and no power make great teachers.

For track days, it's markers. Either numbers or cracks or curbing or something. That's true for turn in points, apexes, lots of stuff. Find good markers and work with them. How do you do that in a race with other cars around? I have no idea. When doing time trial I evaluated each corner depending on who was around me and whether I could safely attempt a perfect corner without being dangerous to someone else. For instance, if someone is going to come around me after a corner, do I want them to go outside or inside? If inside I'll keep speed up and track all the way out and give them a point as the corner finishes. If I want them outside (much less often) I'll brake a little earlier and hold a tighter line so I don't track out and as I stay in my finger goes out the window. Either way I've backed off from 'perfect' braking in the name of safety and controllability. When I'm all alone I tend to push it, but usually only in corners where I know that overshooting braking by a car length screws up my line, not puts me in the grass, although I have put the car in the grass a couple of times.

Whatever you do, do not pick your braking point by where the car in front of you starts braking. You will never get in front doing that.

How you approach the corner in a sprint race, in second place, on the last lap, is completely different from how you approach the same corner in hour 9 of a 14 hour enduro.

Being late on the brakes will seldom put you off in the weeds. It will cause the car to push offline into the marbles or onto the rumble strips. If you blow one bad enough to end up off track, you aren't paying any attention to driving.

I use the markers at CMP. Seat time will tell you where your car needs to brake. I'm always excessively conservative at the start of a race. I'm also guaranteed to blow at least one corner during a stint, usually off onto the rumble strips. It will rattle your teeth, test the strength of all exhaust hangers and give your shocks quite the workout, but it won't warrant a trip to the Marshal's office or get you ejected from the track for life.

As other said its markers that make the difference in consistency.I'm not as good at it as I once was though.

When I was on bikes I got to the point of using a single white stone(maybe 3/4" dia.) in asphalt for a turn in marker,small cracks,patches etc for various reference points.

That's all while carrying the rear wheel off the ground braking HARD at serious speed,the human mind can be an amazing thing when its focused on a task.

When I do a bit of coaching my basic guideline is to find the right line and add speed until you can't maintain that line,I rarely commit 100% to the brakes in a car as its the easiest place to screw your lap imo.

Robbie wrote: At some point, all of this is probably one of the LAST things to focus on about track driving. The time you spend on track between first touching the brake and fully releasing it is often VASTLY overshadowed by the time you spend turning and accelerating. and basically that means that where and how you start braking is MUCH LESS important than where and how you release the brake pedal. Focus on the release first.

This. I figure braking is like intake valve timing. The endpoint is critical, everything else is just what you need to do in order to get to that point...

@trackmouse you have a couple of things going on here. This will likely be very long winded even by my usual rambling standards. I'll do this in two parts.

First I can pretty much tell you the gear and RPM at the braking point mid corner and exit but you don't have to know this. It's easy to do if you train your self. While sitting, say watching TV, hold your index finger out in front of you about the same distance as the tach your car, wiggle your finger back and forth like a tach needle while watching the TV. Note you can see the position of your finger and the TV. Basically you don't look right at the tach but you can tell it's approximate position.

You just need some markers to work off; the old motorcycle book Kieth Code's Twist of the Wrist has good info on this. Some people can do the visual snap shot but most cannot. Use markers.

Now as for learning the fine art of trail braking; take out the threshold braking component to start, find a slower corner where you only need to slow down maybe 10 mph at most. Note the amount of brake pressure is no more than resting your foot on the brake pedal, it's not meant to slow the car only keep weight on the front tires. Start breaking really early but using light pedal pressure, adjust your brake point (sooner later) till you find you are lightly braking until you've stopped turning. You now have 90% of the technique but that last 10% is the really important part. How you come off that last bit of brake is what separates the good drivers from fast drivers. At the 90% mark the car will start to rotate, this is where people will just let the brake off instantly, sadly what that does is cause the front end to rise instantly unload it. You will know if you doing this because either you'll wind on another inch of steering or the car will move over about 1-2 feet. What should happen is once the car starts rotating you wait till inside corner / nose of the car is just barely pointed inside the apex. At that point you can set your foot on the gas pedal and hold that trajectory. To learn this last 10 % go a parking lot and from 5 mph bring the car to a stop without actually feeling the stop, this will take about 20 feet.......in the last 3-6" you'll have almost coasted to a stop. That's how long the last 10% of transition from braking to pure cornering will take.

Now two other components are interlinked to getting this right; first when I say set your foot on the gas pedal after finishing with the trail braking I do mean set, in that first split second you are trying to gently take up the driveline slack so as to not bounce the nose of the car up. Next is you must slowly wind in the steering. Take a wood dowl, if you try to quickly bend it will snap but if you slowly bend it you can get 180 degree bend. When you turn in you're bending the tires in. Trail braking aids this because you wind in less steering, the two are interlinked.

Here is why people have trouble with this; many years ago a friend who'd been racing much longer asked me to take him around he was astounded at my corner entry speeds. Trail braking allowed me to enter a particular corner at around 80mph whereas a non trail braking speed was 75 mph. If you brake hard and let off early/abruptly (just as you start turning) you'll understeer right off the road but a light bit of brake pressure will load the front end just enough to keep the car turning.

Ok next part.

Out braking someone doesn't necessarily mean getting on the brakes later; sure you can roar up to the corner and stand it on the nose but then your turn in and mid corner speed suffer. Take two drivers; TB trail braking & SN stand it on the nose. With both cars traveling at 100 mph 200ft from the apex TB starts braking, SN gets on the brakes at 180ft, turning in at 100ft SN is going 75 mph whereas TB is going 80mph. Let's say for the moment both SN & TB are 73 mph at the apex (I'll explain why this won't likely be the case shortly). Using numbers just to illustrate the point (my math will be poo) lets say from turn in to apex SN averaged 74 mph for that hundred feet whereas TB averaged 76.5 mph. Couple this with the fact that while SN stayed on the gas 20ft longer they also had to slow down 5 mph, meaning while their average speed may have been 1-2 mph higher for about 20ft there average speed for the next 80ft is going to be 2-3mph slower.

You see the above in racing all the time; SN pulls out lunges past by getting on the brakes later but as they get to the turn in point TB edges back ahead and sails past the apex 4-5mph faster. Now the fact that SN had 6ft less track width to use is some of this it's likely not more than a mph or two.

Now back to why TB will have a higher apex speed trail braking will rotate the car and TB will be getting the maximum slip angle out of the front and rear tires at the same time (higher entry speed) because in essence TB has 4 wheel steering they will use less steering lock so when it comes time to pick up the throttle the front tires will have less resistance as well as being able to pick up the throttle sooner.

So what does all this have to do with the original question? After setting some markers for your line, you need to start thinking about putting a car on a trajectory. The common method is brake hard dead straight then steer round the corner until you can accelerate off the corner. The fast way is to blend braking into braking and cornering to cornering to cornering and accelerating to accelerating.

Two weeks ago I was with a student at a track and we worked on getting them to blend everything. By not working on blending the transition rather than trying to go fast we shaved 19 seconds a lap off his times as well as not working nearly as hard.

I can't harp on this enough you need to run at a pace that lets you think about what you're doing while your doing it. Work on the nailing the turn in speed while maintaining good corner speed. After that you can start braking a little bit later, inching up and that sweet spot. If start missing apexes by 6-12 inches you back up your braking point.

I hope that helps, as I talk with my hands this is though to explain in a post but again I hope it helped.

Tom

Crud I forgot one thing. If you are in a car with big down force ignore everything I just said. You can use the aero do to what you need.

Tom

Really informational. I thank everyone.

Great walk through, Tom! Thanks!

Used to do something in driver training that is useful. Tell the student to brake as hard as they can from the point they think they need to start braking to make the corner, but not to turn, just keep pointed straight.

Almost without exception, the student would end up stopped dead on the track well before they'd have needed to turn into the corner.....good way to learn where your braking point is, but of course you can't do that in open practice!

And there are other things the instructors don't talk about. Like when you have a competitor right up your butt at the end of the main straight, using your left foot to push the brake pedal ust enough to light the brake lights without actually braking until maybe 50 feet later....works at least once.

Not meaning to threadjack, but when I watch superbikes or Moto GP, is the rider trail braking when the back end slides out when negotiating a 'slow speed' turn? (5a/5b at barber motorports)

In reply to Trackmouse:

So I don't do the normal though I have seen it works. I don't use track markers or any markers. They actually mess me up for some reason. I think that is why I excelled at rallycross. Regardless of being sideways a bit faster or slower I seemed to know when to get on the brakes. As some have said I started braking at a point where I was able to release some braking as turning in became necessary.

Over my time autox, rallycross, road racing, and track days. I found part of the success of braking is a car that provides consistent braking behavior. Does not have to be super stopping power, should be enough to lock a tire but power is irrelevant, if you can't repeat it.

After the consistent pad/rotor/tires comes the consistent suspension behavior. On the street I found my Evo to have variable behavior on the stock suspension. Turn in wasn't/isn't 100% predictable. On loose surfaces it became much better. Something about the suspension behavior came alive on dirt. In my ITA neon I made a damper change that improved stability getting on power. But it took away my braking confidence as the rears became difficult to modulate. After trying a few different pad and rotor setups was unsuccessful, I changed the dampers to regain consistent performance.

So in summary, get to a consistent braking. No random locking up. Should feel confident to know when a tire will lock or when you are right on the edge of abs. And as you said don't focus on the Porsche GT3 cup car out braking you, focus on your maximum repeatable braking.

@759nrng yes the are trailing the brakes when backing into a corner. On my mother's Pinto of all cars you could trail the brakes a little deeper into a corner and chuck it in like a rally car, also my wife's Geo Prism with the stock tires. One thing to note on the bike is the riders are using there hips to initiate the slide as well.

Tom