The second half of the Toyobaru debuts

Keith wrote: I like the statement "I'll wait...before rendering judgment" followed by judgment I'm okay with Subaru making a RWD car. Heck, it's not that long since they decided to go all AWD, all the time. So ditching that rule when they introduce a car that's nothing like they've done before is fine with me. I can understand there being two versions of the thing if two companies really were involved in putting it together - Toyota doing chassis and Subaru doing drivetrain, for example. I haven't followed this thing too closely during the enormously public protracted development to know exactly how it's split up, but it makes more sense than two faces of the same company selling two versions of the same car a la F-body. We're looking at the "tuned" version here, so the wing and big wheels shouldn't be a surprise. I'm digging the looks myself, other than the fact that the taillights don't really fit into their intended area for some reason - horizontal lines in a region where everything else is not.

the wait for judgement was as it applies to how the car will fare in competition with other similar-sized RWD sportscars. The Genesis, Mustang, 370Z, etc. It's clearly going to have less power - but will it also be alot lighter to make up for it? I mean, around 3000lbs tops?

I don't know, so I can't judge whether I'd prefer this over a Genesis or Z or anotehr car in its class. Not to mention how will it match up against the Scion version?

Can you IMAGINE if the Scion version somehow comes out as being faster? Major dent in Subaru performance cred, IMO.

My comments about AWD are simply that one of the sticking points for people who live in all-weather areas and only want to own one car is that RWD is probably not the top choice. If you live in Massachusetts or Michigan, chances are you don't want a RWD sportscar as your year-round daily driver.

So they've already limited the market to non-winter-weather states, in a class that is crammed with really good competitors (which will naturally include things like the Miata as well, I might add)...or to people buying it as a second car/fun car.

But make it AWD and there are no natural competitors in the sportscar segment in that price range. You can sell it to the guy in the snow-belt who can't buy a Z as a daily driver.

(not getting into the "RWD cars can do just fine in the snow" discussion - just saying that in marketing the majority of the population doesn't want RWD for snow driving).

Subaru carved its own niche for years as the AWD company. Take the AWD away, and Subarus are in many cases inferior in many respects to similar-sized FWD cars out there from Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc.

And as cool as this car looks, what is going to make it stand apart from the Z's, Geneses, Mustangs, and Scions of the world? Not power, we can bet on that. Probably not price. Not interior fit and finish or beefy sheet metal (it is still a Subaru). Not reputation for reliability. Not warranty length.

Again, when it comes out I'll be down the the Subaru dealer ASAP to drive it (they owe me some goodwill after keeping my WRX for 2 months replacing an engine at 9k miles).

BigD wrote: I totally don't get this car. Not only is it a totally 90's USDM thing to do, rebadge the same car and hope the lemmings don't figure it out (I still remember people arguing about how much better engineered an F body or LH car is than another F body or LH) but Subaru has a sport compact powered by a Subaru flat 4...

Toyota wanted a sporty car. Subaru needed Toyota for the emission standards.

If the subaru version used a toyota engine I might buy it,no way in hell I'd buy one any of them with subaru engine.

Make it AWD & 500whp+ capable w/ bolt-ons & I'm there...

irish44j wrote: which will naturally include things like the Miata as well, I might add

DING DING DING! Bench racing is a time honored tradition, but you can go out, today, and buy the badly depreciated NC retractable hardtop miata (170hp, ~2550lbs) for less than $20,000. The projected price for the Toyotaru is ~$27,000, and the specs are within spitting distance (likely a slight edge to the miata). Plus the miata turns into a convertible whenever the weather gets nice. Unless this thing handles like an Exige, I'm failing to see the appeal

irish44j wrote: I'll wait until I see some production-version weight and power specs before rendering judgement. There's already a glut of medium-ish, RWD cars out there - most of them with more power than an N/A boxer is going to make. How will this compete with the Genesis and Mustangs of the world?

Glut? What? Where? The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger play to a different market. Maybe the V6 Mustang could be cross shopped. The Genesis, and what else is close? RX8 and Solstice coupe are gone, BMW 1 series is a different market again. PRHT Miata? This car is really on it's own in my opinion. If we're lucky it will go on a a great success like the Miata and bring back the small RWD coupe market. Back in the 70's you would easily had 20 small RWD hard top coupes to choose from.

Sure I'll never be able to afford one, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see them streaking by on the race track.

If this car is what it should be, I'll be lining up to trade my spleen for one.

Subaru can't afford to break their AWD pledge by releasing a half ass RWD coupe. For this reason alone it cannot, and will not, be anything less than excellent.

mad_machine wrote: honestly.. how hard do you think it would be for subaru to make an AWD version? It seems like all the parts are there except for a centre diff and front axle shafts

Apparently the lower and further back engine placement makes it impossible to do AWD, and so far, not very probable for a turbo either. (At least where Subaru normally sticks them).

It's okay. I like it, but I wish it looked more wolf in sheep's clothing. Nobody would buy that to deliver tofu. It's trying too hard. Looses all the appeal of the original to me. Only cool people knew there was a difference between an SR5 and an 86. This yells "LOOK AT ME!" Just not the same. Not even close. Cool car. But not the same, unless they make a zero to sixty in 18 seconds hybrid version that gets eleventybillion MPG.

It's odd to me that this crowd, the one that purports the Miata as the answer to everything, is so fixated on the numbers.

And no, the Subaru version should NOT be AWD. Yes, Subaru should sell a 2 or 3-door WRX, but this shouldn't be it.

EDIT: not see, sell. "See" implies that I think Subaru is making one, which I don't, I just think they should because FOUR DOORS SUCK.

well.. look how they are tearing the Fiat 500 apart

carguy123 wrote: I don't mind the wing and I like the lines along the sides and rear flank. Not a fan of the nose, but I know, it's the European pedestrian safety standards.

Someone should tell the euros that once they get in front of my bumper they stop being pedestrians and start being obstacles. I would rather they build hideous walkways over every road on the planet than ugly up one more car.

As far as the car, they'll lose the wing, put some mirrors on it*, and hopefully try to clean up the car some.

Performance, if they make it awd without putting snails on there, the car will be slow. It doesn't matter what the brand is, the more companies coming out with rear drive cars the better. It doesn't matter if they're huge wagons that handle like poo, I'm tired of the domination of fwd boxes and would like to see more actual sporty cars instead of econoboxes with sporting pretensions.+

• I'm assuming here, cameras are a good bit more expensive to replace than mirrors because some shiny happy person teenager thought it'd be fun to break E36 M3 on a dealer lot.

+I've owned one car that has been even remotely close to sporting, and it was fwd, and I want to buy another. Still want more rwd cars coming out.

This car is about perfect for me (if the price is right). Going through my own car-buying thought process, I think it will appeal to the people that fantasize about:

A RWD RSX/Integra, a Miata that has a real roof and some extra room, or an RX8 that gets good gas mileage.

My only suggestion, to make this truly perfect, would be to keep the chassis but plop it on a square, upright body that is similar to an old Datsun 510/E30....But now I'm really dreaming.

kilgoretrout wrote: A RWD RSX/Integra, a Miata that has a real roof and some extra room, or an RX8 that gets good gas mileage.

Add to that, anyone who owns an old rwd car and wants to get a new one without breaking the bank.

Sort of related to this, the Saturn sky, how can a car that pretty fail so spectacularly?

Taiden wrote: Blue vs red

Gearheadotaku wrote:

irish44j wrote: I'll wait until I see some production-version weight and power specs before rendering judgement. There's already a glut of medium-ish, RWD cars out there - most of them with more power than an N/A boxer is going to make. How will this compete with the Genesis and Mustangs of the world?

Glut? What? Where? The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger play to a different market. Maybe the V6 Mustang could be cross shopped. The Genesis, and what else is close? RX8 and Solstice coupe are gone, BMW 1 series is a different market again. PRHT Miata? This car is really on it's own in my opinion. If we're lucky it will go on a a great success like the Miata and bring back the small RWD coupe market. Back in the 70's you would easily had 20 small RWD hard top coupes to choose from. Sure I'll never be able to afford one, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see them streaking by on the race track.

I thought we covered this a couple weeks ago. Toyota will not come out and say it but this thing is aimed squarely at the Miata and the tuning crowd associated with it. This thing is also designed to drum up some much needed excitement for Toyota again as the Scion brand isn't generating the excitement it once was.

+It is heavier but packs an extra 30 HP more than the Miata.
+It is RWD because the engine is seated back too far and too low to incorporate it and it never will.
+The Camero and Mustang are RWD muscle cars aimed at a different demographic.
+The Genesis is probably close to the same segment but more of a GT car.
+Price point is rumored to be 25k or less.

Why do people want this thing to compete with 30k+ cars like the 370? Why do they all want AWD which adds weight (then complain about the weight at 2700 lbs) and is for a different category of car?

Sorry reading AOL sites (Autoblog) send me into a blood rage.

With all the hype about this poor car, it HAS to be awesome. But it will not be utterly perfect, so there will be howls of disappointment across the Internet when it gets released in the wild...even if it's about the font choice on the speedo. Subaru and Toyota have to release this thing ASAP simply to stop the buildup.

Comparing it to a used car isn't really legit. Sure, a used Miata might be $7,000 cheaper and this might hurt sales - but what about the oft-quoted $20k Z06 as well? You have to compare new against new, because that's what the buying (as opposed to the commenting) public will do.

There have always been a lot of RWD coupes. And options are good. So I'm looking forward to seeing these around, even if they're not the fastest thing on the planet. Most affordable cars aren't.

Keith wrote: With all the hype about this poor car, it HAS to be awesome. But it will not be utterly perfect, so there will be howls of disappointment across the Internet when it gets released in the wild...even if it's about the font choice on the speedo. Subaru and Toyota have to release this thing ASAP simply to stop the buildup.

See also, Camaro. The OE's either need to keep a lid on this E36 M3 longer, or speed up the development window. Letting a concept simmer for 3-5 years is the wrong call.

Encouraging. Can't wait to see it in action.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Keith wrote: With all the hype about this poor car, it HAS to be awesome. But it will not be utterly perfect, so there will be howls of disappointment across the Internet when it gets released in the wild...even if it's about the font choice on the speedo. Subaru and Toyota have to release this thing ASAP simply to stop the buildup.

See also, Camaro. The OE's either need to keep a lid on this E36 M3 longer, or speed up the development window. Letting a concept simmer for 3-5 years is the wrong call.

Unless youre able to actually..I dunno...deliver on the hype?!?! Just make it great...The designers know how - its the bean counters and lawyers that water it down. I know performance vs liability and longevity is an argument all its own, but it is possible to work us into a pants-wetting tizzy over the return of the RWD sporting coupe, AND blow our minds with the end result. Its the matter of whether or not the OEMS have the testicular fortitude to deliver what we know they should.

It seems to me that Subaru and Toyota sat on this thing too long while companies like Hyundai have stolen their thunder in the mean time.

Keith wrote: With all the hype about this poor car, it HAS to be awesome. But it will not be utterly perfect, so there will be howls of disappointment across the Internet when it gets released in the wild...even if it's about the font choice on the speedo. Subaru and Toyota have to release this thing ASAP simply to stop the buildup.

imho, people are lining up with excuses to not buy the car. Even though they never intended to buy one in the first place.

I'll be curious to see if either Subaru or Toyota can make any money on a car like this, that will probably sell about 10-20k a year, adding both companies up. If that powertrain is unique to this car, it will end up expensive (see S2000 as example0, if not, it may be reasonable (see Miata).

In the end, as much as this board is loud, the enthusiest market is very small. There are a lot of "buyers" out there, but very few ones who will actually pay the bill.

If I'm in a new-car buying position when this actually hits dealer lots, it's on my short list provided I can get it without dealer markup.

4cylndrfury wrote: Unless youre able to actually..I dunno...deliver on the hype?!?! Just make it great...The designers know how - its the bean counters and lawyers that water it down. I know performance vs liability and longevity is an argument all its own, but it is possible to work us into a pants-wetting tizzy over the return of the RWD sporting coupe, AND blow our minds with the end result. Its the matter of whether or not the OEMS have the testicular fortitude to deliver what we know they should.

If it costs $40k to get everything the designers want, would you buy one?

If there were some compromises thanks to the bean counters, and the price as $25k, would that change your answer?

On Toyota's side, if both cars only made $2000 of profit, the lower priced one would have a higher margin, and the additional sales would mean the car could be sold longer.

Cost is a big deal. If you made the "Greatest Car Ever" but sales were so low, thanks to the cost, that you had to stop, how does that help?

One more thing- who's hyping it, Toyota and Subaru, or the Media/message boards? If Toyota is delivering everything they promise (which I have not read), but that's not what you expect- who's fault is that?