The second half of the Toyobaru debuts

Eric, I know what youre saying, thats why I said its probably an argument for a different thread, but honestly, I dont need heated ankle warmers, eleventeen airbags, or backlit fancy digital gauges. That stuff gets in there because the admins say that is what will sell the most cars. Give me a real stripper model, something thats meant to be driven, not take Skyalar and Breighlynn to yo-yo practice. It cant be everything, so dont try to make it. You can cut your mfg costs a lot by leaving out the BS.

And Toyota was putting out media about this car years ago...tossing out teasers seems like OEM hype fodder to me...

I know youre going to say that without 9 LCD screens for the kids to watch the backyardigans, youll never sell them. Make a truly sporting car, and youll sell them to the sport car buying people. The reason no one sells enough sports cars to make a profit anymore is because no one offers actual sports cars anymore. I dont mean sports cars like bagillion dollar Veyrons, I mean sports cars like early Z cars and early Corolla GT-s - stripped down and purposeful. Manufacture quality and give it a real focus, and it will sell itself.

Finding reasons why it wont work is a beancounter move. FInding ways to make it work is a cool guy move. "Sportscar" OEMS need to be cool guys...

From what I have read,the only difference between the two is the front and rear fascias.

4cylndrfury wrote: Eric, I know what youre saying, thats why I said its probably an argument for a different thread, but honestly, I dont need heated ankle warmers, eleventeen airbags, or backlit fancy digital gauges. That stuff gets in there because the admins say that is what will sell the most cars. Give me a real stripper model, something thats meant to be driven, not take Skyalar and Breighlynn to yo-yo practice. It cant be everything, so dont try to make it. You can cut your mfg costs a lot by leaving out the BS. And Toyota was putting out media about this car years ago...tossing out teasers seems like OEM hype fodder to me... I know youre going to say that without 9 LCD screens for the kids to watch the backyardigans, youll never sell them. Make a truly sporting car, and youll sell them to the sport car buying people. The reason no one sells enough sports cars to make a profit anymore is because no one offers actual sports cars anymore. I dont mean sports cars like bagillion dollar Veyrons, I mean sports cars like early Z cars and early Corolla GT-s - stripped down and purposeful. Manufacture quality and give it a real focus, and it will sell itself. Finding reasons why it wont work is a beancounter move. FInding ways to make it work is a cool guy move. "Sportscar" OEMS need to be cool guys...

See, I think that there are cars out there that is exactly what you want, or at least were. The Miata has never been laden with a lot of luxury stuff. The only real "gadget" in the S2000 was that odd dash. The Solstice twins were quite simple.

Of those cars, only the Miata is still around, and it's not in very high numbers. We put the Elise on a high pedastool, and it barely sells anything.

It's funny you mention the Z cars, since they didn't sell well until the 280ZX, which was added "stuff" to sell better.

I know what YOU and most of this board wants. And I fully understand and get it (I drive a base Miata every single day). There's barely enough people out there to buy what's available. Even with that, I don't find driving my Miata all that entertaining, since anything can do 70mph is commuter traffic- I keep it since I can take the top down.

And I do understand that people think that pure sports cars will sell. I just don't believe it. Especially in numbers that make any sense.

The hype is mostly coming from those who are expecting the second coming of the AE86 in my opinion. Interestingly enough, outside of the world of InitialD, that wasn't the fastest car in the world when it was introduced. But somehow, the FT86 will have to be in order not to be a complete and utter failure...

Were the early Z cars really stripped down by the standards of the market at the time? I don't think they were. Neither was the AE86. It's just that the market had different demands then.

It would be fun to take a time machine back to 1989 and see how the current set of enthusiasts would react to a Japanese copy of an MGB before driving it I suspect it would be treated pretty harshly. Not enough power, too heavy, no soul, too plastic-y, too bloated with options ("my MG didn't need power brakes and fuel injection!"), a guaranteed commercial failure because the market had dried up...

The problem with the hype is that other people are going to hear it, no matter where it is coming from and take it as a guarantee.

It's not right and it isn't smart, but that is what people are going to do.

I'm excited about the car.

I wonder how long it will take after it comes out for one to have an LS under the hood.

I'm guessing three months minimum.

In reply to Grizz: pretty much EVERY vehicle should include an LS variant option, regardless of make or model...Im talking to you Mazda

BTW, what I have read on the car is that it's essentially a hard top Miata. So it seems as if it's being delievered really well.

I think there is some merit in the Toyota hyping- perhaps if the two companies did what Mazda did, where the Miata seemed to come out of nowhere, it would have been a lot better. but that's quite hard for two companies to do.

alfadriver wrote: I think there is some merit in the Toyota hyping- perhaps if the two companies did what Mazda did, where the Miata seemed to come out of nowhere, it would have been a lot better.

Is that even possible nowadays? The Miata was released in a pre-Internet, pre-digital camera world. Nowadays, every spy shot is uploaded and Twitbooked within moments of being taken, accessible to the entire connected world in seconds... minutes if the databases are being cranky or you've got a laggy data connection.

Sure it's possible. There were still spy photographers. It would have been leaked a month or two ahead of time maybe - I seem to recall an unmasked prototype was taken for a joy ride. But it really did come out of nowhere while other cars were expected at the time.

hmmmmm
if this thing is as good as it's supposed to be, i get a pretty damn good discount at work. maybe this is something I could trade the kia in on!
this does not help my dream of becoming debt free before moving to austin, though.
reality sucks.

ok, "glut" was probably the wrong word, but there is no shortage of high-quality, high-performance, affordable RWD coupes/sportscars that could be cross-shopped with a $30k BRZ....v6 Mustang, 370z, Miata, Genesis, and of course there will be the Scion version of it as well....which will likely be cheaper, and will sell more.

Taiden wrote: Subaru can't afford to break their AWD pledge by releasing a half ass RWD coupe. For this reason alone it cannot, and will not, be anything less than excellent.

see: 2008 WRX. It ruined the WRX's image and subaru had to to major damage control by quickly and drastically upgrading the car for the 2009 model year.

Let's hope they learned their lesson.

But it's really Toyota that will determine how "excellent" the car will be. And it's been a while since Toyota put out an excellent performance car.

hypothetical question for you all:

Since we all know that the Miata is both an EXCELLENT car for most types of motorsports (outside of drag racing).

And we all know tha the Miata is reliable

And we all know that the Miata is an enjoyable car for weekend cruising, yet also decent for daily driving.

That begs the question:

If there is a market out there for a moderately/low powered RWD sportscar with a traditional fastback/roof and a sub-$30k price tag.....

.....why hasn't Mazda made a hardtop/fastback version of the Miata?

....and why haven't all the Miata-lovers on here been religiously starting internet threads once a week clamoring for a fixed-roof version of one of the best roadsters every made?

Will this Subaru be better than a Miata with a fastback would be?

Will the answer in five years not be "Miata" any more?

Answer: The miata's non-import-tuner looks made it appeal to a broad selection of customers. Soccer moms who want a weekend car. Track rats. Teenage girls. Retired guys too thrifty to buy a Porsche. Or average joes who wanted a cheap convertible.

The BRZ's appearance (regardless of performance) drops it into a very specific market: track guys, import-tuners, and teenage boys (whose parents aren't goign to buy them a RWD sportscar over a GTI or some other sport-compact)

Will that small market be enough to make it profitable/successful?

Miata owners have been asking for a hardtop Miata for years. Mazda did a show car as early as 1996, and it was a sweetie. They produced some in Japan around 2003 or so.

But for some reason, it never made it past the product planners. The argument could be made that the RX8 filled that particular niche eventually.

Will the Toyobaru be successful? We'll let the market decide. Obviously Toyota and Subaru think so, and they've got a lot more to gain or lose than internet message boards wieners like ourselves. Going back to the Miata again, there were no affordable convertible sports cars on the market in 1989. Was that because there was no market, or no cars in the market? We know the answer to that now, but it wasn't obvious at the time.

Keith wrote: Miata owners have been asking for a hardtop Miata for years. Mazda did a show car as early as 1996, and it was a sweetie. They produced some in Japan around 2003 or so. But for some reason, it never made it past the product planners. The argument could be made that the RX8 filled that particular niche eventually. Will the Toyobaru be successful? We'll let the market decide. Obviously Toyota and Subaru think so, and they've got a lot more to gain or lose than internet message boards wieners like ourselves. Going back to the Miata again, there were no affordable convertible sports cars on the market in 1989. Was that because there was no market, or no cars in the market? We know the answer to that now, but it wasn't obvious at the time.

true....I guess we'll see. Toyota/Scion needs something to change the perception that they're boring cars, which this could do. I think it's a great idea from a Toyota standpoint. The AE86 and Supra (and MR2) are missed by many. This brings that back.

I just don't really get where it fits into the Subaru image, which already is known for motorsports and performance, and has a marketing niche with AWD that will no longer exist. Will the Subaru base be disappointed when it doesn't outperform a WRX/STi at the track?.....

irish44j wrote:

Keith wrote: Miata owners have been asking for a hardtop Miata for years. Mazda did a show car as early as 1996, and it was a sweetie. They produced some in Japan around 2003 or so. But for some reason, it never made it past the product planners. The argument could be made that the RX8 filled that particular niche eventually. Will the Toyobaru be successful? We'll let the market decide. Obviously Toyota and Subaru think so, and they've got a lot more to gain or lose than internet message boards wieners like ourselves. Going back to the Miata again, there were no affordable convertible sports cars on the market in 1989. Was that because there was no market, or no cars in the market? We know the answer to that now, but it wasn't obvious at the time.

true....I guess we'll see. Toyota/Scion needs something to change the perception that they're boring cars, which this could do. I think it's a great idea from a Toyota standpoint. The AE86 and Supra (and MR2) are missed by many. This brings that back. I just don't really get where it fits into the Subaru image, which already is known for motorsports and performance, and has a marketing niche with AWD that will no longer exist. Will the Subaru base be disappointed when it doesn't outperform a WRX/STi at the track?.....

^something to think about. a new base wrx costs 25k. so will this car. why buy the brz if the wrx is quicker, more turbo, and awd-cooler?
looks alone is what makes it a contender really. it'll be a tough decision, I'm sure.

Because the BRZ is going to feel way better, and the 'feeling' is the whole point of enthusiast cars that are driven. Hence why an older Miata being slow doesn't matter

irish44j wrote: I just don't really get where it fits into the Subaru image, which already is known for motorsports and performance, and has a marketing niche with AWD that will no longer exist. Will the Subaru base be disappointed when it doesn't outperform a WRX/STi at the track?.....

Well, going back to the Miata (again!), it didn't outperform the RX7. But that seemed to work out. Not every car has to be the performance king of the line.

Keith wrote:

irish44j wrote: I just don't really get where it fits into the Subaru image, which already is known for motorsports and performance, and has a marketing niche with AWD that will no longer exist. Will the Subaru base be disappointed when it doesn't outperform a WRX/STi at the track?.....

Well, going back to the Miata (again!), it didn't outperform the RX7. But that seemed to work out. Not every car has to be the performance king of the line.

wasn't the RX7 considerably more expensive than the Miata, though? Especially the vert?

Taiden wrote: Because the BRZ is going to feel way better

I'm not denying the very distinct possibility that that will be the case, but the only basis for this statement is everyone's hopes and dreams at the moment....

irish44j wrote:

Taiden wrote: Because the BRZ is going to feel way better

I'm not denying the very distinct possibility that that will be the case, but the only basis for this statement is everyone's hopes and dreams at the moment....

I consider it fact, because if it's not true, it will have been a complete waste of money for both Toyota and Subaru, because as stated already, there are other cars that will outperform it numerically. I have faith that neither company would find themselves neck deep in an enthusiast oriented product that sucks.

I wonder if some of the thinking behind the car is an "image" car. Neither company produces a "sports car". The WRX is in a different class. So they put this pretty, sporty car in their show room to show that, " Yes, we build sports cars". to bring people in and while they are there they will buy a Camry or an Imprezza.

Taiden wrote: I consider it fact, because if it's not true, it will have been a complete waste of money for both Toyota and Subaru, because as stated already, there are other cars that will outperform it numerically. I have faith that neither company would find themselves neck deep in an enthusiast oriented product that sucks.

I don't know. Still amazed that Honda made a hybrid sports car that's mediocre from both a speed AND mileage standpoint. (sure is cool looking though.)

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