The secret to autocrossing is...

svxsti wrote: My advice, start with a 2006 Audi TT with the DSG, better reaction time than manual and quicker shifts, plus the AWD makes you quicker out of turns. Then you can upgrade to best tires with the tallest sidewall, which won't be very much in the best tires, I find lower profiles break quicker and no need for bigger wheels. Beyond that you can build up to 400hp.

The secret is almost never just one hot car. Many fast drivers will not like a particular chassis, especially with a slushbox. (even if it's fast)

@Dusterbd13 there are a couple of things. If you don't have a copy "secrets of solo racing" get one. Next probably the biggest over aggressive habit is the brakes or more importantly how you come off the brakes, if you are a abruptly popping off the brake pedal it instantaneously unloads the front end, Trail braking is your friend. In spots where trail braking isn't used make sure you are not popping off the brake pedal and then winding on the steering......the front end is in the air and doing nothing. The easiest way to figure out if you are doing this is think about your corner entry, does the car start to point in towards the apex but wash slightly wide then as you come though the apex and pick up the throttle the car feels bound up and then you get snap power oversteer? Heavy braking burys the nose of the car and lifts the rear so as the driver winds the wheel in the car snaps into the turn, leading said driver to believe the car is turning and so they pop off the brake unloading the front end, the car washes wide so the driver winds on more steering, just as the car comes through the apex the front end scrubs enough speed to grip/turn and unloads the back just as the throttle is being picked up so the back steps out and as the driver unwinds the wheel to catch the back the front unloads enough that it starts washing and the car does a lovely 4 wheel wash across the pavement......if all this sounds remotely familiar work on how you release the brakes. As an example of aggressive smooth technique the first one I can think of is in slaloms/Chicago boxes or other spots with rapid transitions is using the spring wind up to rapidly change directions, think of getting the car to do an intentional tank slapper or the rally Scandinavian flick. For sections with long straights we may late apex the preceding corner to get a good drive, at the other end if there is a series of tight corners then using an early apex and late braking would allow you to stay on the gas longer, if you throw away the following corner it doesn't matter becuase the time lost was eclipsed by the gain on the straights. One of the things our courses seem to have is a chicane before the finish, if there isn't at least 50ft before the lights I will over cook the chicane becuase getting a drive out of the chicane doesn't matter. As for course memory the easiest thing to do is only worry about the sections that aren't drive it as you see it. If the slalom cones are equally spaced then the only worry is which side you want to enter so don't expend any extra brain power beyond that. Also do not get wrapped in remembering cones that do not matter; for instance when exiting a corner the only cone that matters is the outside one. Same thing for the apex, there is only one cone that matters.......basically there only three cones per corner that you care about. Finally learn to open up your vision if you haven't already, you don't need to look at every cone. A simple eye exercise is to put your right hand up next to your face and wiggle your index finger, at the same time extend your left arm straight out in front of your nose and wiggle your index finger, while do thing this focus an object across the room......notice you can see all three things at once. Your right index finger is the turn in, the left index is the apex and the object across the room is the exit. This exercise keeps you from target fixing which tends to lead to jerky inputs.

 Tom

wbjones wrote:

Ian F wrote:

HiTempguy wrote: The butthurt is strong in this thread lol

Whenever there's a discussion about autocross on this forum, there usually is...

you're right .. but I hadn't gotten that vibe yet … HiTemp, to what are you referring ? what did I miss ?

HiTempGuy is trying to tro...uh, "argue" that autocross isn't "real racing" (rolls eyes)...how original...

When you break it all down, attempts to do this require at least one of 2 mistakes:

1. Romanticizing danger. Bark M. from TTAC did this a few months ago.

2. Arguing that only wheel-to-wheel racing is "real" racing, which would discount things such as stage rally (obviously HiTempGuy can't go this route - it's a particularly stupid one anyway)

Let's not berk up this thread about being a badass autocrosser, guys.

Personally I just want to suck less.

HiTempguy wrote: The trolling is strong in this thread lol

FTFY

One of the most helpful things I've found(once you're not ham-fisting every single corner and can at least drive consistently, even if not "fast") is to have someone co-drive for an event or two who knows what they're doing. When my Mazda2 was bone stock I found that I was not being anywhere NEAR aggressive enough to get it to rotate on turn in. I was focusing on being smooth but as a result I had to slow down too much for it to be beneficial. There was about a 2 second difference with my co-driver being faster than me in my own car which he had never driven before. He's not even a national competitor, just a local pretty-quick guy.

Now with a rear bar and added front camber, it drives how I like to now. And should be better when done with my franken-suspension and especially with real auto-x tires now, but I'm still going to seek out someone likely faster than me to see what I'm doing differently/better/worse to try and improve.

And yeah, looking ahead helps. Do that first.

JohnyHachi6 wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: Some great advice that many newbies could use, and that I wish I could have received as a newbie: "Drive like a meth-head running from the cops"

There are definitely two categories of novices in this respect though: those who need to be more aggressive and could use this advice, and those who are too aggressive and need to focus on being smooth. Most novices I've coached were in the first category, but I was definitely in the later category when I started (and I've coached a few others who were too). Being in the second category, you find the limits of the car/tires real quick, but then you need to reign it in and keep from going over the limit.

Still to this day, my first autox run on a course is to push way too hard to know exactly what I have in terms of grip and how the car is going to react. Then subsequent runs smooth that out and run quick times. It drives some people crazy, but I like knowing what I have and still need to do.

Dusterbd13 wrote: Let's not berk up this thread about being a badass autocrosser, guys. Personally I just want to suck less.

Tom (master of the run-on sentence;)) had some very good tips in his earlier posts. Also, there are some good driving tips here.

If you don't have a copy "secrets of solo racing" get one.

Next probably the biggest over aggressive habit is the brakes or more importantly how you come off the brakes, if you are a abruptly popping off the brake pedal it instantaneously unloads the front end, Trail braking is your friend.

In spots where trail braking isn't used make sure you are not popping off the brake pedal and then winding on the steering......the front end is in the air and doing nothing. The easiest way to figure out if you are doing this is think about your corner entry, does the car start to point in towards the apex but wash slightly wide then as you come though the apex and pick up the throttle the car feels bound up and then you get snap power oversteer? Heavy braking buries the nose of the car and lifts the rear so as the driver winds the wheel in the car snaps into the turn, leading said driver to believe the car is turning and so they pop off the brake unloading the front end, the car washes wide so the driver winds on more steering, just as the car comes through the apex the front end scrubs enough speed to grip/turn and unloads the back just as the throttle is being picked up so the back steps out and as the driver unwinds the wheel to catch the back the front unloads enough that it starts washing and the car does a lovely 4 wheel wash across the pavement......if all this sounds remotely familiar work on how you release the brakes.

As an example of aggressive smooth technique the first one I can think of is in slaloms/Chicago boxes or other spots with rapid transitions is using the spring wind up to rapidly change directions, think of getting the car to do an intentional tank slapper or the rally Scandinavian flick.

For sections with long straights we may late apex the preceding corner to get a good drive, at the other end if there is a series of tight corners then using an early apex and late braking would allow you to stay on the gas longer, if you throw away the following corner it doesn't matter because the time lost was eclipsed by the gain on the straights.

One of the things our courses seem to have is a chicane before the finish, if there isn't at least 50ft before the lights I will over cook the chicane because getting a drive out of the chicane doesn't matter.

As for course memory the easiest thing to do is only worry about the sections that aren't drive it as you see it. If the slalom cones are equally spaced then the only worry is which side you want to enter so don't expend any extra brain power beyond that. Also do not get wrapped in remembering cones that do not matter; for instance when exiting a corner the only cone that matters is the outside one. Same thing for the apex, there is only one cone that matters.......basically there only three cones per corner that you care about.

Finally learn to open up your vision if you haven't already, you don't need to look at every cone. A simple eye exercise is to put your right hand up next to your face and wiggle your index finger, at the same time extend your left arm straight out in front of your nose and wiggle your index finger, while do thing this focus an object across the room......notice you can see all three things at once. Your right index finger is the turn in, the left index is the apex and the object across the room is the exit. This exercise keeps you from target fixing which tends to lead to jerky inputs.

Tom

(I edited to make it easier to read because it was great advice and I wanted to read it closely...thanks Tom!)

jstein.....run on?? I wonder if Kimi teaching me English could be the problem?

pinchvalve....thanks that's exactly what I wanted.

Now this is the point were I confess I am the A.D.D poster child but obviously it's not much of a confession. (You know you have ADD when, look a Lancia) I seem to recall Randy Pobst being a member of the distraction faction as well. In a road race I can easily focus for 30 minutes but at autocross turning on and off between runs is tough. I came to the realization that it was easier to just stay switched on. In the Formula 500 because getting belted up takes more time I just stay in the car, think about where I can improve and visualize those sections.

Yamaha......good approach flog the first lap and then dial back what doesn't work........I've been doing this in the F500 as I have not regularly run a single seater in 10 years and go figure the limits are well beyond the Datsun.

Dusterbd13.......you made me laugh; about 10 years ago I started doing vintage MX races, having only ever road raced bikes my comments were I totally suck at motocross. Now I only kinda suck at motocross.

I thought of one other aspect on attack versus hack. If the when you turn in the back of the car floats around the front you've rotated the car. If the car flops over on its side, like it fell into a mudd puddle, then turns you've gotten the timing wrong or crossed over the line between float and flop. Around 80% of the cars weight will transfer to the outside tires, if you snatch the steering wheel the abrupt weight transfer overloads the outside tires and they just wash out. It feels like trying to run in knee high water.

If you can find a place to try out some mild skid pad exercises you can practice a few of things:

1. Drive around in a circle till you build some lateral force, then abruptly lift off and notice how the car tightens its line. Note you can do this at 50% and see a significant result.
2. Do the same exercise but this time when you lift off tighten the wheel at the exact moment you lift off the throttle. Try this a few times and you'll see how much quicker you can rotate the car.
3. Now do the same thing but use the lightest possible brake pressure needed to make the car rotate and hold that pressure till the car rotates. This is trail braking.
4. Try this a few more times using slightly more pedal pressure, eventually you'll get diminishing results and now know what to much feels like.
5. For The final exercise drive straight on, then when you get to the exact spot you've been rotating the car and use one of the techniques you have just practiced......... presto you've just come up to a gate and rotated the car.

Now as for the hard can autocross be; many many years ago the region worked a car launch for the XR4TI, a certain Scott Pruett ran round the cones and no suprise he wasn't as fast as a couple of the local members. Given more then two runs he would have obviously sparked them. Again I always use my comparison to motorcycle trials; it's a different discipline but those competitors with throttle control, brake finesse and the ability to place the vehicle millimeter perfect will outshine those that can't.

Tom

In reply to Tom1200: Wow, Tom, are you talking about the St. Pete Grand Prix in 1988? I was there; in fact, I was one of the ones that beat Scott's time. ;-)