Could we make our Porsche 997 better on track without destroying its street manners?
That was our goal with this project. We picked up this 2007 Porsche 911 with the intention of having a car that could do it all, from the daily commute and classic car tours to morning meetups and, yes, the occasional track day and autocross.
I run 32F/34R hot tire pressures in my 996 Turbo. I start out with cold tire pressures of 24F/26R on NT01's. Hate to tell you I told you so about the brake pads, but, well, HP+ pretty much stink at everything.
Next article: "How some bolt-on suspension upgrades make a $28,000 2023 Miata perform as well as a modified 15 year old 911 with over 300 hp" :)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Might be worth putting that comparison test down in the ideas book.
docwyte said:Hate to tell you I told you so about the brake pads, but, well, HP+ pretty much stink at everything.
What am I missing? J.G's quote in the article was "...these are darn good brakes and quite user-friendly.”
They do share one thing: Miata drivers have been getting their butts kicked by minivans since day 1.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/
CrashDummy said:docwyte said:Hate to tell you I told you so about the brake pads, but, well, HP+ pretty much stink at everything.
What am I missing? J.G's quote in the article was "...these are darn good brakes and quite user-friendly.”
“They actually seemed to have a bit more bite when they were cold than once they got some heat in them. So, your very first hard stop could sometimes trigger ABS when you weren’t expecting it. But once they warmed up, they had a nice pedal, and I didn’t drive them long enough to fade them.”
But they might not be civil enough for everyone, as they’re noisy at light applications when warm and dusty all the time. He’d give them a 7.5 out of 10 for both road and track use.
Keith Tanner said:Next article: "How some bolt-on suspension upgrades make a $28,000 2023 Miata perform as well as a modified 15 year old 911 with over 300 hp" :)
I'm curious what the total cost to recreate this 911 is at the moment. Are we in the same ball park as the "triple threat MX-5" or is the Porsche way more expensive for the same lap times because Porsche? I don't think Andy has done anything to that Mazda that would really hurt its street car manors too much.
I think the ND2 has great potential as a future low-budget track car but right now it's hard to justify spending a little more to get the Mazda when you could grab a C5 Z06 slightly cheaper. That's if track is your primary focus. I'm sure the Miata is a nicer place to sit.
Keith Tanner said:CrashDummy said:docwyte said:Hate to tell you I told you so about the brake pads, but, well, HP+ pretty much stink at everything.
What am I missing? J.G's quote in the article was "...these are darn good brakes and quite user-friendly.”
“They actually seemed to have a bit more bite when they were cold than once they got some heat in them. So, your very first hard stop could sometimes trigger ABS when you weren’t expecting it. But once they warmed up, they had a nice pedal, and I didn’t drive them long enough to fade them.”
But they might not be civil enough for everyone, as they’re noisy at light applications when warm and dusty all the time. He’d give them a 7.5 out of 10 for both road and track use.
I guess I read that as "obviously there are compromises with any pad that needs to work on the street and on the track but these are pretty good" rather than "they stink at everything". If the GRM crew continues to experiment, I'll be interested to hear if they find a pad that they think is an upgrade on both the street and on the track.
In reply to CrashDummy :
Andy's car will still be quite good on the street. I'm pretty familiar with everything he's got on the car other than his choice of sway bar, and about the only downside to that will be a little more head toss. I've done thousand mile days in NDs with the same spring/shock setup and with the same wheel/tire size package. Based on my experience with a stock 997.2 S, the Miata could very well ride better.
You don't need to start with a new Miata to get that ND, they haven't changed appreciably in the past four model years. The $28k is for a brand new, fully warranteed car and nothing Andy has done should void the powertrain warranty.
GRM hasn't disclosed what they paid, but Tim hinted that he got a 20% discount on a $50k car. So if you're not Tim, you're at $50k. The cost of most of the mods aren't disclosed, but I'll bet total cost in mods for the Miata and the 911 aren't that far apart. Tire cost going further will be about 50% higher on the 911.
The C5 Z06 has been the "cheap speed" answer for some time, but the newest ones are 19 years old now so they're going to be a different ownership experience than a new Miata. I'm not sure they actually are any less expensive than a new Miata anymore, and the bottom end of the C5 Z06 market is higher than the bottom end of the ND2 market at the moment. You can still get a C5 Z06 for $20k, but only if you like salvage titles.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to CrashDummy :
The C5 Z06 has been the "cheap speed" answer for some time, but the newest ones are 19 years old now so they're going to be a different ownership experience than a new Miata. I'm not sure they actually are any less expensive than a new Miata anymore, and the bottom end of the C5 Z06 market is higher than the bottom end of the ND2 market at the moment. You can still get a C5 Z06 for $20k, but only if you like salvage titles.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for used ND2s! I did a quick autotrader search within 500 miles of me in CT. Cheapest manual ND2 was $24,200. Club models (do you need this to get the LSD?) started right around $26K. Same search for C5 Z06s showed good cars starting around $25K, although some went way up from there. If the sub-$20k Z06 ever really existed it doesn't anymore but the ND2s don't look like they've depreciated much at all in my area. I'll be sticking with my NA for now while keeping an eye on what ND2 prices do going forward.
Yeah, the ND2 values are holding up. Some of it could be because 2019s are only just coming off lease, so you don't get that spike in used availability that happens at the 3 year mark. And yes, you do need the Club or the GT-S to get an LSD although I've rarely found that to be a big limitation at stock-ish power levels and good tires.
Let's say that the bottom of both is about the same, then. Small light sportscar with warranty vs bigger, more powerful Covette that's older. Choice is good. And hey, GRM has both ND2 and (past) C5 Z06 project cars! JG did push that 'Vette a little further than the Miata or 911 projects, though.
In reply to CrashDummy :
Then they talk about how noisy and dirty they are in street driving, plus how they didn't do enough laps to get any real heat in them. They rated them a 7.5/10, so mediocre, at best.
My point, which I've made over and over, is there is no cross over brake pad for a heavy, powerful car that's going to see track use. If JG had done enough laps to really put heat into those pads, they would've faded, badly. So what are you left with? A pad that over heats on track, when used for typical 20-30 minute sessions, yet still is noisy and dusty for street use.
At that point you might as well just run a good track pad, or do what pretty much everyone does, which is just swap out your street pads for track pads before the event and then swap back when the event is over.
Man everyone loves to find reasons to hate those pads, don't they?
Look, I think maybe we all need to be a little more realistic about what we want from brake pads. The wish list seems to be fr a pad that's great on the street, can stand up to endless abuse on track, doesn't tear up rotors, is clean, quiet durable and cheap. And, sorry, that just doesn't exist.
As for th HP+ on the 911, my 7.5 on the street is points off for noise and dust. The 7.5 on the track is for the fact that they work great, but you need to manage the heat after a couple laps. But for a "one pad to do it all" fitment, that seems like a darn good compromise.
Honestly I think if you're doing 20-30 minute track sessions, where every lap of those sessions is at a push pace, the pad you should be doing that with is not one that you should be using for any great amount of time or distance on the street. That pad may exist for certain edge cases of mostly fairly light cars, but for a 3000+lb 911 you;re just dealing with a lot of kinetic energy that you need to turn into heat, and any daily driver pad is just not going to be up to it. So there's going to be a compromise somewhere, and in the case of the HP+ they compromise on both the street and track side to end up with a pad that's not truly great at either, but definitely good at both.
I like hp + pads. We run them on the rear of our rx7 in endurance races. Always work great for us!
JG Pasterjak said:Man everyone loves to find reasons to hate those pads, don't they?
Look, I think maybe we all need to be a little more realistic about what we want from brake pads. The wish list seems to be fr a pad that's great on the street, can stand up to endless abuse on track, doesn't tear up rotors, is clean, quiet durable and cheap. And, sorry, that just doesn't exist.
As for th HP+ on the 911, my 7.5 on the street is points off for noise and dust. The 7.5 on the track is for the fact that they work great, but you need to manage the heat after a couple laps. But for a "one pad to do it all" fitment, that seems like a darn good compromise.
Honestly I think if you're doing 20-30 minute track sessions, where every lap of those sessions is at a push pace, the pad you should be doing that with is not one that you should be using for any great amount of time or distance on the street. That pad may exist for certain edge cases of mostly fairly light cars, but for a 3000+lb 911 you;re just dealing with a lot of kinetic energy that you need to turn into heat, and any daily driver pad is just not going to be up to it. So there's going to be a compromise somewhere, and in the case of the HP+ they compromise on both the street and track side to end up with a pad that's not truly great at either, but definitely good at both.
I did not want to hate on the HP+ pads...they were installed on my NC Miata when I bought it and they were fine on the street, very good for AutoX, but fell short of expectations on the track. I agree that if you want to manage your brakes for 20 minute track sessions, they can be made to work. I very much prefer a more track focused pad where I can abuse it lap after lap and not worry about it fading away.
The HP+ may be fine for some people on a limited basis on the track, but I think that most people will be disappointed with their track performance.
The people chiming in here and in the other post about the brake install are sharing that part of their experience.
In reply to JG Pasterjak :
I believe I said exactly that, right above your post, lol!
Yes we all agree that there's no such thing as a multipurpose brake pad. The thing is if you're going to live with not running hard on track, there's much more street friendly pad options that will hold up to mild heat. You don't have to compromise on both streetability and trackability, just one or the other. (Well okay there's always going to be dust from performance pads, but they can at least be quiet and not quite so ridiculously dusty)
In reply to CrashDummy :
Even if it costs more for a similar-ish experience on track, it's a Porsche. The reception from car and non-car people alone will be worth the price gap. Add in the added appeal as you walk towards it/look over your shoulder walking away, the sound, the straight line speed, the ability to cruise at 80 mph without a hint of hesitation, and the list goes on. I'd rather have a Cayman/Boxster, but for most, the 911 will always be the goal.
You'll need to log in to post.
