There's a Fiat 124 Spider on my lift

(sigh) people still making declarative statements in regards to styling.

I suspect that Keith went with white as a better canvass for graphics.

As for the hood line in profile, it's kind of like what Nissan did when they restyled from the 350 to 370Z. It looks more purposeful at the expense of grace. But that's what's so cool about the Fiat/Miata twins. You can pick the slimmer sister whose bones stick out a bit more, or the more voluptuous one. I wouldn't throw either one out of bed.

In reply to Kreb:

BUT MUSTARD IS REQUIRED over ketchup. Don't you get it??

lol.

ChrisV - As it happens, I don't really care for the styling on the Birdcage that you posted either. I much prefer the looks of the Maserati 300s - which ironically enough features a droopy nose that's a little like the new MX-5.

nderwater wrote: lol. ChrisV - As it happens, I don't really care for the styling on the Birdcage that you posted either. I much prefer the looks of the Maserati 300s - which ironically enough features a droopy nose that's a little like the new MX-5.

Notice where the apogee of the fender is in relation to the front wheels. More like the Fiat than the Miata. And while the nose drops off, it's not looking smooshed like the Miata, either. It's long and graceful.

And Kreb, if there weren't right ways and wrong ways to style stuff, you couldn't TEACH design in any school. But top paid designers and art schools might disagree with you. And design houses like Pininfarina wouldn't exist. You CAN study this stuff and make pretty accurate commentary. Color and form can be taught and learned like music can (there are pleasant and not pleasant chords and you can tell when an instrument is out of tune. There is subjectivity to music preference, but there is underlying facts and structure, too).

In reply to Chris_V:

If there were right ways and wrong ways to style things, there would be no disagreements about styling...Yet here we are.

I would also argue that the true "apogee" of the front curvature is in roughly the same location on both, being slightly aft of the front wheel centerline. So that's not what's actually bothering you about the Miata styling. It's just more pronounced on the Miata, becuase of the Miata's curvaceousness. What you're also seeing in the Miata is a tighter curvature at the apogee that straightens out to make a sharper/lower nose and curvier body, but a more gentile initial curve that gradually tightens a little to create a softer/higher nose and squarish body on the Fiata. Neither technique is any more "right" or "wrong" from a design perspective than the other.

This debate only highlights how well Mazda/Fiat did at making these fraternal twins, thus broadening their combined appeal, rather than making them identical twins.

In reply to Chris_V:

Sure there are pleasant and unpleasant chords but that doesn't mean the unpleasant ones are bad or where would Bartok be?

In reply to Chris_V:

Modern cars are an exorcise in designing for mass (international) appeal. I personally think both examples would look great in my driveway (simultaneously, even).

That said, I'm still smitten with the Fiat 124 Abarth's look. That black hood sets it off right with me.

I'm also in the camp that prefers the MX-5 styling to the 124. I've seen both in person. and it only reaffirmed this. To me, the 124 is derivative and looks "tacked on". Like the latest Thunderbird, I don't think it will age well.

The MX-5 is a clean-sheet design and I think it looks striking. (at least from the front) I find the rear a little cheap looking, but to me, the rest of the car is a knockout.

Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder. Some prefer the styling of a Subaru STI over a Jag E-Type. As hard as that may be to figure out..... who's to say someone is wrong for being attracted to a design....I can't. To each his (or her) own. I"m just glad we have a choice in cool cars. It wasn't too long ago when we had NO choices in affordable sports cars.

Chris_V wrote:

nderwater wrote: It's exactly that look -- body work stretched as tightly as possible over the hard points -- that to me says 'purposeful' and 'athletic' and is partly why I prefer the styling of the the Mazda over the Fiat

You can have a car stretched tightly over the hard points and still have classic, good styling. The Miata has neither.

Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. To my eyes the Miata looks fresh and aggressive; the Fiata looks like a kluge of retro cues pasted on. But as they say beauty is in the eye of the beerholder and thankfully we have choice. Either way some cash goes into Mazda's (hopefully Flyin' Miata's) pocket.

I wonder if the age of the beerholder has anything to do with which car one prefers. My hunch is that generally older guys will prefer the Fiat and younger guys will prefer the Miata. Notice I said guys. I have no idea what women like, so I'm not going to comment on it.

^^^ I dunno about that. I'm an "older" guy at 46, and I much prefer the MX-5.

Heck, one of my best buddies in HS had a nicely restored 124, and I still prefer the Miata. So even with the nostalgia, the new 124 doesn't do it for me.

As if the subjective nature of styling needed to be desmonstrated anymore, I must add...for as much as everyone seems to hate the Miata rear styling...that's my favorite part of the car!

To my eye the Miatas styling has around the same appeal as the Nissan Murano. Nothing at all about it looks good.

The Fiat however I find handsome. Not the world most beautiful thing, but handsome.

Not that that's is what this thread is about. I'm excited to see what the boys do with it.

bravenrace wrote: I wonder if the age of the beerholder has anything to do with which car one prefers. My hunch is that generally older guys will prefer the Fiat and younger guys will prefer the Miata. Notice I said guys. I have no idea what women like, so I'm not going to comment on it.

Saw a red miata in the wild today, first I have seen in probably months. (I don't drive that much though). A woman was driving it.

Chris_V wrote: And Kreb, if there weren't right ways and wrong ways to style stuff, you couldn't TEACH design in any school. But top paid designers and art schools might disagree with you. And design houses like Pininfarina wouldn't exist. You CAN study this stuff and make pretty accurate commentary. Color and form can be taught and learned like music can (there are pleasant and not pleasant chords and you can tell when an instrument is out of tune. There is subjectivity to music preference, but there is underlying facts and structure, too).

Cooking is taught, too, but that does not mean that everyone will like all food made.

Also, just because there is a design house, that also doesn't mean they are all good. I really liked Bertone in the early-mid 60's- as the GTV shape is one of my favorites of all time. But the wedges they did in the 70's, I thought were terrible.

Most style schools are more about getting the style out of your head vs. teaching you a specific "this is what style is" formula.

Datapoint: I'm 26 and prefer the 124.

And Kreb, if there weren't right ways and wrong ways to style stuff, you couldn't TEACH design in any school. But top paid designers and art schools might disagree with you. And design houses like Pininfarina wouldn't exist. You CAN study this stuff and make pretty accurate commentary. Color and form can be taught and learned like music can (there are pleasant and not pleasant chords and you can tell when an instrument is out of tune. There is subjectivity to music preference, but there is underlying facts and structure, too).

You misunderstand my point. I just hate it when someone says "That's ugly" in the same way that they'd tell you that water is wet or the ground is dirty. The comment is inaccurate because the subjective is being expressed as an objective. It's also useless because it doesn't contribute anything of value to the discussion. If one says, "I don't like it, and here's why:", we've got something of substance to consider.

29, strongly prefer the Fiat. Probably not much of a surprise as a life-long Fiat fan. The MX-5 doesn't do much for me. The harsh creases that Mazda has grown ever so fond up seems to cover every square foot on the MX-5. Sure, yeah, they're there on the 124, too, but muted substantially.

To the people saying the 124 is too boxy; It's a Fiat. That's what they do. Boxes and Bubbles. That's it.

Fun discussion. I personally prefer the Miata, but the Fiat is better looking in person than it is in pictures. It's also really hard to photograph well, so expect them to start looking better. The Fiat has some nice details but the vintage/modern vibe doesn't push my buttons.

Keith Tanner wrote: Fun discussion. I personally prefer the Miata, but the Fiat is better looking in person than it is in pictures. It's also really hard to photograph well, so expect them to start looking better. The Fiat has some nice details but the vintage/modern vibe doesn't push my buttons.

It does push mine. Even the T-Bird and Retro-Mustangs do.

Something about the Miata isn't right for me. I feel like it is trying to hard to be cool--the NA was just trying to be an Elan; the NB an evolution on that. I feel like the ND is trying to be a Frisbee twin? Maybe? The styling just isn't for me. I'll take the 124 in either blue or green with saddle color leather.

Although the targa makes it very hard to say that I like the 124 better.

Joe Gearin wrote: ^^^ I dunno about that. I'm an "older" guy at 46, and I much prefer the MX-5. Heck, one of my best buddies in HS had a nicely restored 124, and I still prefer the Miata. So even with the nostalgia, the new 124 doesn't do it for me.

You are not old at 46, bud.

^^^ Thanks bravenrace-- I actually never feel old until I have to deal with one of those drop-down screens asking me what year I was born in........damn.....I have been around for all those years!

Although I'm not a big fan of the 124s styling, I've gotta say that the FM kit makes it look worlds better. A little lowering really helps that design.

The standard model 124 wheels are too small, I haven't seen an Abarth yet. Our Fiat dealer is next door to the Mazda dealer, and seeing them so close together is an eye opener. I thought I'd prefer the Fiat, but the Miata does look better to me side-by-side. I have a few issues with the Mazda styling as I think the car is too stubby for the look they are trying to pull off. It would definitely be a better looking car if it were a foot longer, or the fender bulges were dropped a fraction. Still, it's certainly not unattractive. I'm waiting to see the hardtop version.

Interior wise, the Fiat seemed to look a ton better as the seats look a lot more upmarket. Not sure how either sit in real life.

Now on a different set of wheels Because we had them. I think I still prefer the bronze on this car. That's a 17x9 with a 235 tire.

When photographing the two, you need to be REALLY careful how you position the Fiat. It's has some ungainly angles. Walk a foot to one side and it just looks uncoordinated. The Miata does not have this same problem. I've also never seen any similarity in real life between the Frisbee and the ND other than they're both modern and curvy and small.

Did I mention the optical illusion? There's something about the hood of the Fiat that makes it look HUGE from the seat. It's actually pretty funny. I think it's the shape of the hood working against perspective, but from the passenger's seat it has a hood like a Continental.

The Fiat has Miata seats, they're just upholstered differently. They do all come with the thicker tops used on the GT Miatas, so they'll all be quieter inside on the highway. That's a nice touch. The cheaper Fiat models come with a pebbled surfacing on the door tops and dash that's the same as the NC Miata, not my favorite. I haven't seen it yet, but I think the higher spec models are a lot nicer in terms of material. In that case, I'd say the Miata has the nicer interior (but not top) than the Fiat but I think the reverse is true on the more expensive ones.

We have an RF ("targa") coming to FM on Friday. My plan is to get a photo of it, the ND and the Fiat together. Hasn't happened before as far as I know, as the RF's never been seen outside a car show.

Do you have any pictures of the 124 that look ungainly? I'd be interested in seeing those as well.