I haven't been following this thread (even though I'm very curious about the Abarth version for obvious reasons), but I got a postcard in the mail yesterday from my Fiat dealer.
Free $50 Amazon gift card if I come in and test drive any 2016 or 17 Fiat vehicle. Vacation day Monday? I think I know what I'm going to be doing/driving.
Keith Tanner wrote: Fun discussion. I personally prefer the Miata, but the Fiat is better looking in person than it is in pictures.
I just learned that the 2016 MX-5 was awarded "2016 World Car Design of the Year" - so there's that.
bravenrace wrote: Do you have any pictures of the 124 that look ungainly? I'd be interested in seeing those as well.
Try google. I keed, I keed 
bravenrace wrote: Do you have any pictures of the 124 that look ungainly? I'd be interested in seeing those as well.
I can certainly supply some. They're on my work camera. Basically, if you get the car in profile or slightly towards the front, the nose just looks like it's off the wrong car. The picture I just posted of the car on the black wheels - step about two feet to the left and boom. Something goes wrong with the proportions and the angles. I am really digging the back, and it's a very wide, low looking car from the front and rear.
However, I have sad news. The track is NOT its natural element. I spent the day at the track with a wide range of cars (spoiler alert: the ND V8 is probably even better than you think it is) including an ND and a Fiat on almost exactly the same suspension, wheels, tires and brakes. The only difference is that the Fiat had ND Bilstein shocks instead of Konis due to a supply problem with Koni. Watching the two cars chase each other around, the Konis were a bit better in a bumpy section but it wasn't night and day.
The Fiat wasn't happy at all. Our track is a tight one, a big kart track kind of like the one that GRM uses a lot. Think of it as a permanent autox course with elevation changes, big fast sweepers, bumps and kerbs. Once we'd dialed in as much rear bar as we could, the car started to turn. But even then, the turbo lag was so bad as to be comical. I was seriously at full throttle as soon as I turned in so the power would be ready by the time I got to the right part of the corner and hopefully let the car come off the corner well. Brake, throttle, turn. Just atrocious. Kind of like a Miata with a huge turbocharger, but when the power comes on it's "oh, finally" instead of "oh god I hope the wheels are straight". Throttle steering was not really possible. The Miata, on the other hand, is a sharp tool, the direct descendant of the stock 1.6 I drove a bit later.
We'll probably be able to do something about the Fiat's powerband. A less restrictive intake and exhaust and possibly some throttle pedal remapping and we might be able to get rid of the lag. And it looked great out there. But I'm not going to be fighting for the keys at the track tomorrow.
I am really happy with how Fiat and Mazda managed to give the cars two very different personalities and looks - other than the interior, you could be forgiven in thinking they were just similar cars instead of siblings.
Keith Tanner wrote: Brake, throttle, turn. Just atrocious. Kind of like a Miata with a huge turbocharger, but when the power comes on it's "oh, finally" instead of "oh god I hope the wheels are straight".
Second coming of the MSM?
I can't afford to go to the junkyard to get an AICV for the Accord, somewhat because of the $3 entry fee, and here you go, making me want a V8 ND like nobody's business.
codrus wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: Brake, throttle, turn. Just atrocious. Kind of like a Miata with a huge turbocharger, but when the power comes on it's "oh, finally" instead of "oh god I hope the wheels are straight".Second coming of the MSM?
The MSM never lagged like this. It's real, and it's spectacular.
tuna55 wrote: I can't afford to go to the junkyard to get an AICV for the Accord, somewhat because of the $3 entry fee, and here you go, making me want a V8 ND like nobody's business.
I did three sessions in the ND V8. After about three laps, I was throwing it around like my Targa Miata. It felt just the same. The same as a dedicated race car that's got 8 years of continuous development behind it. I cannot believe how good it is. It's got some residual problems from the swap such as an ABS system that is currently confused due to some missing CAN signals and we've melted some poly exhaust hangers, but the car has no reason to work this well, this soon. I'm in love.
Sorry.
Jerry wrote: Free $50 Amazon gift card if I come in and test drive any 2016 or 17 Fiat vehicle. Vacation day Monday? I think I know what I'm going to be doing/driving.
That sounds like an excellent way to make $50.
Keith Tanner wrote:tuna55 wrote: I can't afford to go to the junkyard to get an AICV for the Accord, somewhat because of the $3 entry fee, and here you go, making me want a V8 ND like nobody's business.Sorry.
Dude. Will you knock that off? Your Canadian is showing!
In reply to Keith Tanner:
Thanks for all that information. Sounds like you have an opportunity with the Fiat to reduce the turbo lag.
Keith Tanner wrote:codrus wrote:The MSM never lagged like this. It's real, and it's spectacular.Keith Tanner wrote: Brake, throttle, turn. Just atrocious. Kind of like a Miata with a huge turbocharger, but when the power comes on it's "oh, finally" instead of "oh god I hope the wheels are straight".Second coming of the MSM?
Serious question since this seems to be an issue with a number of modern turbocharged cars- are the manufacturers actually tuning (with drive by wire and other bits) to promote lag so that people feel like they get more of a kick when boost finally arrives?
Doesn't look bad in front of the Playboy Mansion...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote: Serious question since this seems to be an issue with a number of modern turbocharged cars- are the manufacturers actually tuning (with drive by wire and other bits) to promote lag so that people feel like they get more of a kick when boost finally arrives?
that's a very good question. It seems it was not all that long ago that some manufacturers like BMW were working very hard to eliminate all perceived lag in their turbocharged cars
It doesn't hit hard when it hits. It's just a swell of torque that arrives a second or two after it is requested, not tick tick tick BOOM! I suspect - and Alfa can chime in here - that the transition into boost is a tricky area for emissions and that's why we're seeing this behavior more and more. I'm pretty sure that's why the MSM tuning was so funky. It's also a 1.5 engine making well over 100 hp/L. The Fiat engine might pair really well with an automatic.
Keith Tanner wrote: It doesn't hit hard when it hits. It's just a swell of torque that arrives a second or two after it is requested, not tick tick tick BOOM! I suspect - and Alfa can chime in here - that the transition into boost is a tricky area for emissions and that's why we're seeing this behavior more and more.
FWIW, there's very little lag when getting into boost on my 2016 S6. Of course, it's got a lot more displacement to play with, plus it's a VW AG product, and strictly complying with emissions standards is not what they're known for... :)
Keith Tanner wrote: It doesn't hit hard when it hits. It's just a swell of torque that arrives a second or two after it is requested, not tick tick tick BOOM! I suspect - and Alfa can chime in here - that the transition into boost is a tricky area for emissions and that's why we're seeing this behavior more and more. I'm pretty sure that's why the MSM tuning was so funky. It's also a 1.5 engine making well over 100 hp/L. The Fiat engine might pair really well with an automatic.
That is assuming they'll allow left foot braking to leverage the torque converter to build boost mid corner. If they don't allow it, then it will only be slightly better since you don't have to lift to shift.
Wasn't there a turbo option available on the original Spider?
Keith Tanner wrote:Jerry wrote: Free $50 Amazon gift card if I come in and test drive any 2016 or 17 Fiat vehicle. Vacation day Monday? I think I know what I'm going to be doing/driving.That sounds like an excellent way to make $50.
Ford did a free $50 prepaid Visa to test drive anything in the fall of 04. I used it on a new 05 Mustang GT drive, and then used the card as part of my down payment on a Nissan pickup from a car dealer.
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: That is assuming they'll allow left foot braking to leverage the torque converter to build boost mid corner. If they don't allow it, then it will only be slightly better since you don't have to lift to shift.
If the converter is matched properly, you shouldn't need to left foot brake, unless the lag is bad enough that the turbo is outaccelerated by the engine even when in the engine's powerband. Which does seem to be the case.
I do wonder if the variable cam timing has any effect. 1.8t-hacking fools (Motronic 7.x is quite hacked indeed) have found that locking the exhaust cam all but eliminates the turbo lag. So the variable cam timing is actually hurting, not helping, turbo spoolup in that application.
It sounds like on a scale of 1 to 10, the Fiat 124 is a solid "F2T". At least, every F2T that I've driven had turbo lag so bad that it didn't build any boost at all until the trans upshifted.
The slow spool must be an avoidable thing from an emissions perspective. Ford got it pretty well figured out on the V6 ecoboosts I've tried.
Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: Wasn't there a turbo option available on the original Spider?
There was, but it was not factory. In 1981 Legend Industries bolted a small kkk turbo to the 2.0 to boost Hp up to 120.
Fiat/Lancia were more interested in Supercharging..
Jerry wrote: I haven't been following this thread (even though I'm very curious about the Abarth version for obvious reasons), but I got a postcard in the mail yesterday from my Fiat dealer. Free $50 Amazon gift card if I come in and test drive any 2016 or 17 Fiat vehicle. Vacation day Monday? I think I know what I'm going to be doing/driving.
And that's what I drove. There was a red one inside, but both were automatics. The hood felt 100' long after driving the Abarth for 2.5 years (even compared to Subarust). I liked that even at 45mph in the city with all windows down I did not get buffeted by crazy wind. Obviously it picked up at 70mph highway.
I don't know how much to blame the auto, but flooring it to get on the highway was...uninteresting. It has the same engine, but obviously not the same exhaust. And even my little gymshoe of a car, when I hit the gas and the turbo spools up, it puts me back in the seat a little. This one....uh no.
The car itself was nice, I'd reserve judgement until I tried the manual, and obviously I'm curious about the Abarth version forthcoming.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote:Keith Tanner wrote:Serious question since this seems to be an issue with a number of modern turbocharged cars- are the manufacturers actually tuning (with drive by wire and other bits) to promote lag so that people feel like they get more of a kick when boost finally arrives?codrus wrote:The MSM never lagged like this. It's real, and it's spectacular.Keith Tanner wrote: Brake, throttle, turn. Just atrocious. Kind of like a Miata with a huge turbocharger, but when the power comes on it's "oh, finally" instead of "oh god I hope the wheels are straight".Second coming of the MSM?
Maybe they're trying to promote fuel efficient driving habits by making a clear line between "cruising gently" and "POWAAAHHH"? Lots of marketing departments exalt the fuel savings associated with turbos, but if you're in the boost all the time, those benefits don't really exist and customers are unhappy. Making it feel like an engine with 2 seperate modes (fuel efficient, and sporty) could get people to better understand when they're using fuel or not compared to an engine with no lag that seems moderately sporty all the time, and uses fuel accordingly.
Keith Tanner wrote: It doesn't hit hard when it hits. It's just a swell of torque that arrives a second or two after it is requested, not tick tick tick BOOM! I suspect - and Alfa can chime in here - that the transition into boost is a tricky area for emissions and that's why we're seeing this behavior more and more. I'm pretty sure that's why the MSM tuning was so funky. It's also a 1.5 engine making well over 100 hp/L. The Fiat engine might pair really well with an automatic.
I've never found it to be an emissions problem- every modern turbo engine can run stoich at peak boost for a little while without problems. So there's no real emissions impact.
What I see it as is 1) too small of an engine boosted to make too much power (big turbo-small engine)- so it takes some pressure to have it react, and 2) late trans reaction to 1. In theory, it should to a lock-lock downshift, or at least an unlock to raise engine speed and lower the lag. But it does not. This I have seen in some development things. Really annoying.
It's worse below 2000rpm.
Knurled wrote:Stefan (Not Bruce) wrote: That is assuming they'll allow left foot braking to leverage the torque converter to build boost mid corner. If they don't allow it, then it will only be slightly better since you don't have to lift to shift.If the converter is matched properly, you shouldn't need to left foot brake, unless the lag is bad enough that the turbo is outaccelerated by the engine even when in the engine's powerband. Which does seem to be the case. I do wonder if the variable cam timing has any effect. 1.8t-hacking fools (Motronic 7.x is quite hacked indeed) have found that locking the exhaust cam all but eliminates the turbo lag. So the variable cam timing is actually hurting, not helping, turbo spoolup in that application. It sounds like on a scale of 1 to 10, the Fiat 124 is a solid "F2T". At least, every F2T that I've driven had turbo lag so bad that it didn't build any boost at all until the trans upshifted.
That only matters if the converter unlocks. Which it sounds as if it's not.
And lots of things have impacts on turbo lag. But the biggest one is someone trying to get too much out of a small package- which means you need a lot of boost for peak torque- which takes time.
Things I've heard- I'm not all that impressed with Multi-Air. Good for fuel economy on the Euro emissions test. But not anywhere else.
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