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Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/1/20 9:20 p.m.

All new vehicles in the US come with an emissions control warranty that lasts 8 years or 80,000 miles, I think 10-15 years ago it was 7yr/70k.  

Here is an example of what Ford has published on their website.

Ford said:

Emissions Defect Warranty

Emissions Defect Warranty Coverage

Passenger Cars & Light Duty Trucks:

• 8 years/80,000 miles (whichever comes first) for catalytic converters, electronic emissions control unit, and onboard emissions diagnostic devices, including the Battery Energy Control Module (BECM)

• 2 years/24,000 miles (whichever occurs first) for all other covered parts. (Note: Ford’s 3-year/36,000-mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty bumper-to-bumper coverage, surpasses this mandatory federal coverage.).

Heavy Duty Vehicles:

Applies to trucks over 8,500 pounds GVWR up to 19,500 pounds GVWR

The emissions warranty coverage period for heavy duty vehicles (“HDVs”) is 5 years/50,000 miles (whichever comes first) for all parts covered by your emissions warranty.

For important information about vehicles designated as “vocational vehicles” on the underhood “VEHICLE EMISSION CONTROL INFORMATION” label, please see your Warranty Guide.

In this case most 3/4 and 1 ton trucks likely fall into the second category due to their weight classification. 

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/1/20 9:25 p.m.
grover said:

Can we talk about what defines "coal rolling?" 

If ALL you see is black smoke, you're rolling coal.

Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/1/20 9:25 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

It would be nice if they would make the systems more relaible, or not mandatory if not needed to pass the epa tests.   My def system completely failed at 59k with many smaller issues up to that point.  Do i want to be a bro with an uncorked 5" exhaust and a blow all the soot tune?  Nope.  Do i want to be the guy whose truck gets him to work every day reliably that doesn't need to go to the dealer every 5k for warranty work on the def system?  Yep.  
 

i have partially deleted stuff because of all the problems i had and have an efficient tune that blows no visible soot.  I put a muffler on so it's not loud, and i am averaging 4mpg above stock across the board.  What's the overall tradeoff for pollution increase vs overall fuel consumption decrease?  
 

it pisses me off just as much to see someone going by uncorked blowing soot like a 40 year old dump truck

Odds are that you are multiple times the emissions on the truck.  Just because you can't see soot doesn't mean it's not well over the standard.  On the emissions front, the NOx is likely way out of wack.  Can't be sure, but I would think that your are somewhere between 5-10x of your original trucks.

And the real issue you have is with the maker, not the rules.  If it really all failed at 59k, I would totally send a note to the EPA and complain about it- as they are supposed to go twice that far and still keep the emissions.  And failing is not an option.  If enough people had the same issues you have, the EPA would force the maker to fix it, on their dollar.

I realize that many people here are not a fan of the EPA, but they can be used as a very powerful tool to make the maker of whatever you have meet the rules.

I've worked with diesel engines in test cells both with and without aftertreatment systems.  While I don't recall the numbers for the various types of emissions Alfa is right that NOx emissions are through the roof on a deleted truck.  NOx output from the engine at a steady state run point can be in the many hundreds of parts per million while the aftertreatment system reduces that to single digits.  It hasn't been easy to make diesel engines run cleaner and keep their reliability up - EGR valves, EGR coolers, DPF filters, SCR, DEF, the acronyms go on and on.  It doesn't seem that any manufacturer has been immune to issues.  But also consider most of the regulations have been implemented in the last 20 years, whereas gas engines have been under scrutiny since the 70s. 

I'm not against modifying your vehicle - heck I don't think anyone here has a 'stock' car.  But I do like breathing in clean air.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
12/2/20 5:09 a.m.
grover said:

Can we talk about what defines "coal rolling?" 
 

I ask because I have a 97 F-250 7.3. It is factory stock except for a 5 position switch that I use during towing. When I say factory I mean, OEM size tires, no lift, and factory intake and down pipe. It had 112,000 miles 2 years ago when I bought it and I'm up 176,000 now (I'm a roofing sales manager in north Atlanta that covers Chattanooga TN). Even in the stock position, if I'm towing or getting hard on the go pedal (which I don't do often) I see some smoke out of the tailpipe. It's been like this since before the chip. I have no blow by- etc, I think that's just factory. 
 

my point is that if you drive a diesel, and are towing fairly heavy you are likely to have more visible exhaust at times than a comparable gas vehicle- so is that considered coal rolling? 

Coal rolling in general is just overfueling. A stock tune on a diesel like yours that's old enough to predate emissions regulations isn't rolling coal. Some soot under load is normal for those vehicles. When you start changing fueling or timing with your chip, then you do get into illegal emissions modifications though.

There was a similar question in an older discussion that Keith already linked, so I'll just copy my reply from that post to save time:

"People seem to be focusing on coal rolling, but there are tons of people with deleted diesel trucks or tuned gas vehicles that aren't obviously rolling coal, and they're arguably doing more harm to people and the environment. Not all tailpipe emissions are equal in their visibility, their impact on people, or their impact on the environment.

Tailpipe emissions are the result of decisions/compromises in the combustion process. And reducing one bad chemical compound often results in increasing another. Direct injection makes this easier to get right, and also easier to screw up as you can inject fuel multiple times in each stroke, and the timing/amount of these fuel injections controls what you get out of the combustion process. If you want to prioritize fuel efficiency, and run lean, you get high temps and lots of invisible NOx. If you want to prioritize making more HP, or rolling coal, you add more fuel which reduces combustion temps and NOx, but increases hydrocarbon and particulate production.

Each of those compounds does different things once it's out in the world. NOx and particulates are both pretty harmful for humans, so the regulators have chosen to reduce those things first with the trade off being that they increased some less harmful emissions like HC and CO2. Essentially they prioritized human health over the environment in the beginning. Now that the stuff that harms people is mostly controlled, those environmentally harmful compounds are also being targeted for reduction.

Modern diesels have gotten so good at cleaning up the stuff after combustion, that they actually run dirtier combustion than older diesels like your Powerstroke. If you measure immediately after the turbo, they make far more NOx than a pre-emissions diesel and then they rely on emissions hardware to clean it up. That's how you get 1000ft-lbs with a warranty and cleaner tailpipe emissions and basically the same fuel economy as 20 years ago. But, if you delete that emissions hardware that's doing all of that cleanup, you've just got that dirtier combustion process creating more tailpipe emissions. And that's before you start trying to make more power, or roll coal, or increase fuel economy. And as Kieth has said, it could mean increasing emissions several orders of magnitude higher than allowed by law.

So the point is that coal rollers are highly visible for enthusiasts and non enthusiasts alike. But for every brodozer rolling coal and making it obvious that they're breaking the law, you've got several others creating just as much harm without making it obvious. Thats why regulators are going after those who enable and profit from emissions modification. It eliminates all of the offenders at the source."

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/2/20 6:09 a.m.

So to bring this around to a significant opportunity- if anyone can find a better alternative than DEF to meet diesel emissions, you will be set for LIFE.  As will your children.  And their kids.  

The key problem with diesel is converting NOx in an oxygen rich environment.  If you can do that better than how it's done now (more effective, more reliable, and cheaper), the world will be your oyster.  Especially if you can maintain engine efficiency.

One of the things that have kept gas so relevant is that while emissions have improved, so has power and efficiency.  And that's why a slight loss in FE to have a gas turbo engine in a truck vs a diesel.

karplus2
karplus2 GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/2/20 8:55 a.m.
grover said:

Can we talk about what defines "coal rolling?" 
 

I ask because I have a 97 F-250 7.3. It is factory stock except for a 5 position switch that I use during towing. When I say factory I mean, OEM size tires, no lift, and factory intake and down pipe. It had 112,000 miles 2 years ago when I bought it and I'm up 176,000 now (I'm a roofing sales manager in north Atlanta that covers Chattanooga TN). Even in the stock position, if I'm towing or getting hard on the go pedal (which I don't do often) I see some smoke out of the tailpipe. It's been like this since before the chip. I have no blow by- etc, I think that's just factory. 
 

my point is that if you drive a diesel, and are towing fairly heavy you are likely to have more visible exhaust at times than a comparable gas vehicle- so is that considered coal rolling? 

I think that is perfectly normal for a stock 97 F250. I have a 2015 F350 dually at work that regularly goes across the scale around 30-36k lbs with a gooseneck trailer. Even with the my foot to the floor merging onto the interstate there is 0 visible exhaust...nothing. 

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
12/2/20 9:21 a.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Thank you for the detailed reply. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
12/2/20 9:49 a.m.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Coal Rollers, and I did not speak out—
     Because I was not a Coal Roller

Then they came for me—a regular guy who was trying to squeeze a couple extra horsepower out of my Miata--and there was no one left to speak for me.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/2/20 10:12 a.m.

We're here for you. Emissions legal turbo kits for Miatas!

;)

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/2/20 10:29 a.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

So to bring this around to a significant opportunity- if anyone can find a better alternative than DEF to meet diesel emissions, you will be set for LIFE.  As will your children.  And their kids.  

The key problem with diesel is converting NOx in an oxygen rich environment.  If you can do that better than how it's done now (more effective, more reliable, and cheaper), the world will be your oyster.  Especially if you can maintain engine efficiency.

One of the things that have kept gas so relevant is that while emissions have improved, so has power and efficiency.  And that's why a slight loss in FE to have a gas turbo engine in a truck vs a diesel.

The R&D spend on this has to be insane, and if there are CO2 limits in the future (not sure when but likely) it will have less long term value as time passes.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
12/2/20 10:30 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

We're here for you. Emissions legal turbo kits for Miatas!

;)

laugh

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/2/20 11:50 a.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

It has been.  But it's a very clear opportunity for someone who has an idea.  There will be CO2 limits, and while on a CO2 basis, the difference between gas and diesel is closer than the FE difference, there's still an advantage for diesel.  Moreso if the emissions can be solved in a manner that allows diesel to travel down the ultimate peak efficiency path..

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/2/20 12:20 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

So to bring this around to a significant opportunity- if anyone can find a better alternative than DEF to meet diesel emissions, you will be set for LIFE.  As will your children.  And their kids.  

The key problem with diesel is converting NOx in an oxygen rich environment.  If you can do that better than how it's done now (more effective, more reliable, and cheaper), the world will be your oyster.  Especially if you can maintain engine efficiency.

One of the things that have kept gas so relevant is that while emissions have improved, so has power and efficiency.  And that's why a slight loss in FE to have a gas turbo engine in a truck vs a diesel.

 

Alfa always delivers..   We tried in cylinder controls and EGR type controls.. None of these worked and were pretty poor reliability wise.  SCR seems to be the most reliable solution so far.......  but if you can figure out another way.. you'd be set.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/2/20 12:47 p.m.
ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) said:

I didn't read the linked paper, but those kind of studies are the precursor/basis for regulatory action. They wouldn't spend the money to do the research unless there was some plan on how to deal with it once the data confirmed it.

I hate to say this about regulation in general, but I think I like the idea. I can't stand coal rollers. It's just poor/lazy tuning who's only purpose is being an asshat.

You don't do research to confirm something, you do research to find out.

You just don't hear too often about the studies they do where the conclusion is "Turns out it's no big deal".

Snrub
Snrub Dork
12/2/20 1:14 p.m.
1988RedT2 said:

Then they came for me—a regular guy who was trying to squeeze a couple extra horsepower out of my Miata--and there was no one left to speak for me.

It's literally a couple: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/catalytic-converter-face-/  Doesn't resorting to the elusions of Nazi's over 1-2hp sort of preemptively concede the argument? ;) 

Why should we all have to pay for emissions equipment, while these idiots don't/negate the benefit? It's also a matter of health. Emissions regulations save lives and improve quality of life. The scale of the benefit is a reasonable trade off. Permitting edge case exceptions doesn't impact the overall benefit. There need to be exceptions to emissions rules, but I have no interest in granting it to the very large group identified by the OP. Ps. I have a track miata, and I'd prefer the EPA not look underneath it.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/2/20 1:57 p.m.
Snrub said:
Emissions regulations save lives and improve quality of life. The scale of the benefit is a reasonable trade off. 

This is correct.  

 

It's pretty easy to find mountains of reserch here.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412019300376?via%3Dihub

 

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera Dork
12/4/20 8:42 p.m.

We have been discussing diesel defeat devices and/or tampering periodically since the VW issue.  Coincidentally, on December 2, a list of priorities and future projects was released.  Diesel tampering was #4 on the list.  In our monthly calls, several states have presented on the issue and are working on regulation/modeling/control.  I don't recall the specific states, but likely an upper mid-atlantic or New England state, since they struggle to meet their NAAQS anyway.  So, as things like EGU emissions get reduced or eliminated, the next highest offender becomes a larger percentage of the pie and therefore becomes a target.  States with I/M programs that include tailpipe testing will obviously see the first attempts to control diesel tampering, but many states do not test emissions.  However, a basic I/M check should catch the coal rollers.

simplecat
simplecat Reader
12/5/20 10:53 a.m.

Maybe I'm a just a pessimist, but I don't think this is gonna stop with the roll coal bros, or diesels in general. I think this is gonna end up being an attack on the tuning market as a whole. Who are you to have a tunable ECU? Don't you know how much damage you could do to the environment?

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/7/20 8:06 a.m.
Apis Mellifera said:

Diesel tampering was #4 on the list. 

I would like to know what are 1-3. I can see the challenge, as here in PA diesel vehicles are specifically exempt from testing and emissions inspection. Always thought this was a bit backward considering the total emissions for one larger truck is more than one small car. I am assuming it's because there are no OBD type checks like for passenger vehicles to make it quick/easy/cheap for the shops?

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/7/20 8:20 a.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Apis Mellifera said:

Diesel tampering was #4 on the list. 

I would like to know what are 1-3. I can see the challenge, as here in PA diesel vehicles are specifically exempt from testing and emissions inspection. Always thought this was a bit backward considering the total emissions for one larger truck is more than one small car. I am assuming it's because there are no OBD type checks like for passenger vehicles to make it quick/easy/cheap for the shops?

IMHO, the testing and inspection card is being left out until a state is found to be a non-attainment area.  The easier steps will be taken before the tough ones, and even a simple OBD light check is harder than specifying fuel blends for states.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/7/20 8:22 a.m.
simplecat said:

Maybe I'm a just a pessimist, but I don't think this is gonna stop with the roll coal bros, or diesels in general. I think this is gonna end up being an attack on the tuning market as a whole. Who are you to have a tunable ECU? Don't you know how much damage you could do to the environment?

If the tuning market is found to be very bad players WRT emissions, yes, they will.  That's why one needs to make sure that real racing changes are left for the race cars, and other tunes are largely non changing for TP emissions.  

In terms of their effect, testing will determine how bad they are.

Apis Mellifera
Apis Mellifera Dork
12/7/20 9:27 a.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Apis Mellifera said:

Diesel tampering was #4 on the list. 

I would like to know what are 1-3. I can see the challenge, as here in PA diesel vehicles are specifically exempt from testing and emissions inspection. Always thought this was a bit backward considering the total emissions for one larger truck is more than one small car. I am assuming it's because there are no OBD type checks like for passenger vehicles to make it quick/easy/cheap for the shops?

#1 was EGU-related (Power Plants), 2 and 3 are too convoluted to try to relate.  Speaking of PA, here are some slides from last weeks MARAMA call:

I think it was mentioned earlier, but if the existing I/M regs would have been followed, this issue would likely not be on the radar as much.  However, people, that is the actual individuals, generally don't like regulation that directly affects them in a negative way.  Sure, make the power company put a scrubber on their stack, but my truck better pass the state inspection.  This is the reason many states don't introduce tailpipe testing or exempt segments from testing.  People squawk and those people vote and some of them have powerful connections.  This issue could be largely solved on a per-vehicle basis, but since the local police and service stations have been delinquent on enforcing the existing regs by not ticketing offenders and/or failing vehicles during inspections (citizens don't like this), the feds are looking at regulating industry, that is new restrictions for aftermarket car part makers.  This allows states to point the finger at the feds. The fallout being, when the broad net is cast to catch manufacturers that enable coal rollers, other manufacturers will be swept up.  This is how most regulatory process works.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/7/20 10:10 a.m.
Apis Mellifera said:
PThis is how most regulatory process works.

Should that last graph have the slider over at 10% or 30% to show the effect of tampering? Sure PA has high NOx but assuming that's (mostly) power plant related. Would have thought that would have dropped over the least few years with more NG over coal but haven't looked at the trends. PS is that file really called shiny data? Got a chuckle.

Alfa - is there a good reason to not obd check the diesels? Seems almost too easy to implement, why would it make sense to not do? Equipment is there for cars already, we have mandatory inspections so the vehicles have to be in the shop anyway. Lobby from commercial vehicle mfg to not have emissions burden/costs? I never got the why just liked the loophole when putting random motors into old VW diesel shells and being exempt (though most of the time they would have less emissions than the orig engine anyway, just nice to not have to care)

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/7/20 1:31 p.m.
simplecat said:

Maybe I'm a just a pessimist, but I don't think this is gonna stop with the roll coal bros, or diesels in general. I think this is gonna end up being an attack on the tuning market as a whole. Who are you to have a tunable ECU? Don't you know how much damage you could do to the environment?

If that comes to pass, don't forget who it was who brought the issue to the public eye.

 

 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/7/20 2:46 p.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Apis Mellifera said:
PThis is how most regulatory process works.

Should that last graph have the slider over at 10% or 30% to show the effect of tampering? Sure PA has high NOx but assuming that's (mostly) power plant related. Would have thought that would have dropped over the least few years with more NG over coal but haven't looked at the trends. PS is that file really called shiny data? Got a chuckle.

Alfa - is there a good reason to not obd check the diesels? Seems almost too easy to implement, why would it make sense to not do? Equipment is there for cars already, we have mandatory inspections so the vehicles have to be in the shop anyway. Lobby from commercial vehicle mfg to not have emissions burden/costs? I never got the why just liked the loophole when putting random motors into old VW diesel shells and being exempt (though most of the time they would have less emissions than the orig engine anyway, just nice to not have to care)

The OBD inspections are up to the states.  That's not actually in the EPA's ability.  IIRC, OBD actually came from CARB- and that being a state makes sure there are inspections.  It certainly would be easy, but also an expense, and if a state meets the air requirements, they are not required to spend that money to make an inspection program.

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