Times they are a changing

So a friend just offered me a S2000 with all the functional bits in good shape but no body. For a song. It strikes me that while it's exciting, I'm not over the moon with joy. Why? Because in a world of electric sedans that can smoke most muscle cars in the 1/4 mile, where some SUVs  are faster than all the cars that I grew up with, where a 3.7 liter V6 is good for over 300 HP, and a turbo 2.5 will play with the V8s, a high-reving, low-torque motor just isn't so special any more.  

It's kinda awesome and it's kinda sad. Like looking at pictures of your college sweetheart and seeing her flaws, not just her allure.

Just musing.

I understand where you're coming from,  but I look at it this way:

Fun cars are still fun not matter how much better other cars are, and the better cars get now, the better cars we will have to choose from later for cheap when all the "progressives" switch to electric.

PS, will the s2k drivetrain fit easily in my Miata?

I don't see it that way at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

With new cars becoming electrified, hybridized and digital the old analog stuff feels that much more unique and special as time goes by. But I think this kind of thinking only works if you aren't hyper focused on performance and instead look at the overall driving experience. I'm not trying to claim that old cars have a better experience, but they certainly provide something different, that few modern cars can achieve.  

To stick with your analogy, your sweetheart probably can't compare to super models, especially as time goes by, but that doesn't mean that the love and affection that you felt for that person was invalid. There is so much more to interpersonal relationships than looks, and I think the same can be said about cars and performance metrics. I understand why its the case but I do blame the larger automotive press for the fixation on the numbers. Sure they are a metric that we as consumers can use to help make decisions, but I think a lot of nuance is lost if you just focus on those aspects. 

In general, performance figures mean almost nothing when it comes to driving on a public road. How often do you do a magazine style 0-60 launch or 0-100-0 test on the street? Unless you are running completely stock classes the figures mean very little to motorsport as well. 

I personally don't see how what's coming out today diminishes my enjoyment of my SLOW E34 wagon or my quick E39 M5.

To me, it depends on what the use is for.

Especially if the reason is to go racing, where the size of the engine and if it's boosted or not really matters.  

That powertrain would be fun as a base engine for a DM build of some type.

Justjim: You're right. Part of my dismay is that it's getting increasingly hard to build a world-beater for a song. My Stalker V6 cost me $14K and ran with Z06 Vettes on handling courses like Sears Point and Laguna Seca 15 years ago. That same car would be significantly further back in the pack now, as there's an abundance of new cars that run in that speed class or better. 

OTOH, the S2000 bits in this car should weigh under 1600 lbs, so it won't be exactly slow: 

Miata drivers have been complaining about being smoked by minivans since 1990. It's about the experience. Even the S2000 in its prime (nearly two decades ago!) wasn't the fastest car in the world. It was engaging and it still is.

I'm lucky to be able to drive what is basically the same car over 30 years of development and with widely varying power levels. And you know, the enjoyment level isn't necessarily tied directly to the speed of the car. It is if you're in competition, but if you're not, well, it's all about feedback and character. And an S2000-based car would be full of feedback and character.

And yes, the drivetrain will fit in a Miata but not all that happily. It's a tall engine and the engine management requires the retention of the stock cluster IIRC. That may have changed. I think a Miata with an S2000 engine could be a whole lot of fun - that's basically the first version of my Targa Miata but with a lot less time or money building an engine.

And my college sweetheart still pushes my buttons 

Kreb said:

So a friend just offered me a S2000 with all the functional bits in good shape but no body. For a song. It strikes me that while it's exciting, I'm not over the moon with joy. Why? Because in a world of electric sedans that can smoke most muscle cars in the 1/4 mile, where some SUVs  are faster than all the cars that I grew up with, where a 3.7 liter V6 is good for over 300 HP, and a turbo 2.5 will play with the V8s, a high-reving, low-torque motor just isn't so special any more.  

It's kinda awesome and it's kinda sad. Like looking at pictures of your college sweetheart and seeing her flaws, not just her allure.

Just musing.

 

the race of Gentlemen is a lot of fun even though those old Flatheads are 70-80-90 years old by now. 

Vintage racing  can be exciting and really good for your soul.    Group 1 in Vintage racing is about prewar and MGT series cars  most of which have only a little over 50 horsepower. 

Yet the smiles will cause sore faces the next morning from all the joy and laughter.  

Having the absolute latest and best is a cruel drug. There will always be something faster  and better.  

The trouble is it’s a game you can’t win at.  There will always be something faster.   

If a Lotus 7 body or similar could be made to fit on it, then cool. There aren't really any other types of cars I would want an S2000 powerband in.  I recently put a clutch in a nearly perfect 80k mile AP1 and outside of a racetrack setting I dont see it as a very enjoyable powertrain. 

EDIT: This was meant for Keith

^The modern K swap are even better than the old F20/22 engine. You can easily buy all the parts. 

You already know this. 

I know of the swap kit for the K, I've never driven one. I need to take a very close look at a fully finished, proper conversion and one that's not a track rat or "90% finished".

But nobody's giving Kreb a K series, they're giving him an S2000 engine :)

Vigo said:

If a Lotus 7 body or similar could be made to fit on it, then cool. There aren't really any other types of cars I would want an S2000 powerband in.  I recently put a clutch in a nearly perfect 80k mile AP1 and outside of a racetrack setting I dont see it as a very enjoyable powertrain. 

Fortunately that's kinda the idea. The body I posted above is designed to slip over a Locost 442 chassis. 

You guys are making good points. Some of the best automotive fun I've had was hooning the family Volvo as a teenager. And there's something to be said for working for your meal.

Isn't an S2000 without a body ...simply a pile of parts?

I saw a documentary once where an old Toyota 8-6 beat a S2000 in the downhill.

Lotus 7 with S2000 drivetrain = WCM Ultralite. I've been a passenger in one - where my Seven would run out of steam, it hit VTEC yo and it took off.

I'll be watching the Build Threads sections for your impending VTEC deathkart. 

On the plus side, you can feed that motor boost and make enough to have all the fun.  Drag guys are running ~800hp through stock internals.

Would be fun in my MR2, what are your plans for the running bits?

I don't want to make too big a fuss about it at this point, because it's #3 on my build list. The backstory is that the S2000 was having a custom body built for it by an old guy who ran out of steam, and cannot afford to have a pro finish it. To realize his vision would take several hundred fabrication hours and he's decided that his priorities are elsewhere.

Dr. Hess said:

I saw a documentary once where an old Toyota 8-6 beat a S2000 in the downhill.

I think I recall that the key factor was in hitting three specific points in a given corner, and how you got to those points was irrelevant.

For the record, I have no interest in swapping my mostly stock NB Miata, but I might add boost someday. I love my little car, I was just mentioning A swap to illustrate that a free front engine RWD drivetrain may be a huge upgrade for something he has his heart set on but that needs modern power and reliability.   

I drove a C6 Z06 and a stock 79 MGB back to back and realized that cars can be too good to be fun, and I am happier in a car that 60 feels like 130, not the other way around.  

So when is your F20 swapped Formula Ford build coming? 

Knurled. said:

Dr. Hess said:

I saw a documentary once where an old Toyota 8-6 beat a S2000 in the downhill.

I think I recall that the key factor was in hitting three specific points in a given corner, and how you got to those points was irrelevant.

I feel like I may have seen that documentary. Wasn't that S2000 driver doing a weird thing where he wouldn't take his one hand off the shift knob?

i don't know how or why this turned into an 86 versus S2K debate, but there is an answer...

I drove an S2000 for the first time last year at an autocross. Me and the owner swapped vehicles. His was also an AP1 but with intake, header, exhaust, tune and probably other stuff I'm forgetting, but it made around 235hp at the tires, don't know the peak torque. I think the engine was the part that thrilled me the least. It was just so anemic feeling down low, you had to keep it on a boil. The chassis and the brakes were phenomenal, but the engine didn't really blow me away. Much more of an area-under-the-curve/sane engine RPM crowd.

Kreb said:

So a friend just offered me a S2000 with all the functional bits in good shape but no body. For a song. It strikes me that while it's exciting, I'm not over the moon with joy. Why? Because in a world of electric sedans that can smoke most muscle cars in the 1/4 mile, where some SUVs  are faster than all the cars that I grew up with, where a 3.7 liter V6 is good for over 300 HP, and a turbo 2.5 will play with the V8s, a high-reving, low-torque motor just isn't so special any more.  

It's kinda awesome and it's kinda sad. Like looking at pictures of your college sweetheart and seeing her flaws, not just her allure.

Just musing.    

Kreb, I feel your pain. I have also thought about all the late nights in the garage decades ago trying to get a car to make 350 hp then the ever elusive 400 plus horsepower. Wouldn’t trade those times for anything. Yet it’s kind of weird now when anyone can spend just a few thousand dollars on a car with so much more power. I guess people today would consider just a mild street engine. I recently had a car at a show and the guy next me had a later model Dodge with a hemi tuned to 725hp.  He explained the car was run on a dyno in Florida and the tune was sent from a guy in New Jersey. He said he drives the car daily. Yep the times are a changing.