Tired of the confusion

Are extreme summer tires a bad street tire? Are ultra summer tires so slow? Is this just all Internet ramblings? It's about time I get some new tires for my e36 m3. I am looking for 235 40 r17. I'm using this car for spirited driving, track days, and autocross. I'm not too concerned with wet driving as this is not my only vehicle. However I want to be able to get back home if I get stuck out in the rain. I would like to use one set of tires for all this. And if possible something that won't need replacing after only a few months. Thanks!

Pretty much anything ST-prep legal should be fine.

I've been running 140-200tw tires as street tires for years. No problems.

I've managed over 20k miles per set of Dunlop Z1 star specs in street driving and autox duty. So long as you're not getting BFG Rivals, they'll do ok if you're caught out in the rain. The only downfall is that autox compound tires could overheat if you are running hard on a track day.

My impression is that a lot of complaints about wet grip come from people in California and other dry climates. They don't get enough drive time in the rain to know what good wet grip feels like. I know that my driving skills in the wet have atrophied since I moved from Michigan to California.

A true summer tire REALLY sucks in the snow, but clicking on your profile would lead me to believe that isn't really a problem.

In reply to Type Q:

The other group somehow think driving to and from events on shaved tires makes sense....

For the record, you'll notice they will heat cycle from daily driving on them. They'll take a bit more heat in them before they get sticky at events after that point. I autox'd on the same 235/40r17 set from sticker fresh, through middle life, and by the last event I ran on them, slicks with no tread left. Only difference was time it took to heat up and get really sticky.

I ran starspecs all year long on my Ti in the same size you are pondering. Yes, they lost a lot of traction in the winter due to the cold.. but they did well and usually lasted two complete years before the geometry of the Ti's lowered rear suspension wore out the inners on all 4 tyres.

They were even fun in the snow...

Some of the "hot" autocross tires are better than others in the rain. The Dunlops and I suspect the new Bridgestones (since they look like a clone of the Dunlops) are actually pretty good in the rain. Hankooks - meh, not awful, not great, since they like heat and rain usually means cold. The Rivals, pretty bad, they just don't evacuate water well. But still, if you're a decent autocrosser you should have enough car control skills to get home in the rain on any tires with any sort of tread.

I run Conti DW on my E46 9 months a year. They are fantastic in the rain and don't get overwhelmed on an Autocross course, even if they are getting pretty stale at this point. I doubt they'd live long at a track day, though.

fiesta54 wrote: Are extreme summer tires a bad street tire? Are ultra summer tires so slow? Is this just all Internet ramblings? It's about time I get some new tires for my e36 m3. I am looking for 235 40 r17. I'm using this car for spirited driving, track days, and autocross. I'm not too concerned with wet driving as this is not my only vehicle. However I want to be able to get back home if I get stuck out in the rain. I would like to use one set of tires for all this. And if possible something that won't need replacing after only a few months. Thanks!

It depends on what you're driving needs are. If you didn't do track days, you might be able to go with just ultra high performance summer tires, especially if you did autocrosses just for fun. If you want to win, they are much too slow. They are fun, however, and are good for beginners so they don't have to completely re-learn how to race compared to all-season tires. If you're starting out, you can progress from a max performance, then an extreme performance summer tire if you wanted to know first hand the grip, noise, and life differences. I don't think an ultra high performance summer tire can withstand temps from a track day, based on what other members mention. On curvy roads, my ultra high performance summer tires allow me to go from faster to much faster than I should be driving on public roads; enough to get me a ticket for reckless driving.

Of course, rain performance will vary from tire to tire. The new DZ 102s have good wet handling, but don't resist hydroplaning very well.

I don't have a lot to contribute to this, other than the absolute truth that Rivals are the safest tire in the world on snow, because you cannot move. At all.

In reply to Streetwiseguy:

Buwahahahaha!

Is your M3 kept inside? The extreme summer tires are temperature sensitive. Manufacturers do not recommend freezing temps. The rubber can crack. Just another thing to consider.

yamaha wrote: I've managed over 20k miles per set of Dunlop Z1 star specs in street driving and autox duty. So long as you're not getting BFG Rivals, they'll do ok if you're caught out in the rain. The only downfall is that autox compound tires could overheat if you are running hard on a track day.

and the Rival is ok as long as it's not deep standing water

drdisque wrote: Some of the "hot" autocross tires are better than others in the rain. The Dunlops and I suspect the new Bridgestones (since they look like a clone of the Dunlops) are actually pretty good in the rain. Hankooks - meh, not awful, not great, since they like heat and rain usually means cold. The Rivals, pretty bad, they just don't evacuate water well. But still, if you're a decent autocrosser you should have enough car control skills to get home in the rain on any tires with any sort of tread.

you forgot to add the Toyo's to the awesome side of the ledger …

my first day on R1R's … received them on a Fri. took them to the installer, brought them home and put them on the car, got up the next morning and drove 120 mi in heavy rain to the event … the rain stopped for my run group, but the track was VERY wet … I ended up gapping my class by 5+sec … (and I am, in no way shape or form, a top tier driver … decent for local / regional events ) … that was mostly the awesomeness of the tire

trucke wrote: Is your M3 kept inside? The extreme summer tires are temperature sensitive. Manufacturers do not recommend freezing temps. The rubber can crack. Just another thing to consider.

How big of an issue is this? If absolutely necessary I could probably buy some cheapo tires for the couple really cold months in central va

Here is how it was explained to me:

Ultra performance tires deliver ultra performance across the board.

Extreme performance tires deliver extreme performance in dry conditions.

I run RS3s on my Corvette, my daily driver, year round. I don't want to drive in snow or below 30 degrees but I've been caught in it and not died. Plenty of rain and 40 degree driving though and it's been fine. Go for the grip.

In my experience Extreme Performance is the category you want if you are looking for dry grip...and they work 'okay' in the wet too. Just when it gets 40 or below watch out because the performance starts droping off like a rock.

Maximum Performance is the category you want for maximizing wet grip, and is the most balanced performance tires you can get for a vehicle. You will have the best wet weather handling with very good dry handling as well. And they will start outperforming Extreme performance tires when the temps drop.

Every other tire category...put on a boring DD you don't care about because they are CRAP for performance when it comes to dry or wet grip and responsiveness.

Oh, and Track HOURS is going to be the determining factor in your tire life... so the less track days the better (for tire life).

Type Q wrote: My impression is that a lot of complaints about wet grip come from people in California and other dry climates. They don't get enough drive time in the rain to know what good wet grip feels like.

I think it's because we have such poor drainage here in California that when it rains there's always standing water.

fiesta54 wrote:

trucke wrote: Is your M3 kept inside? The extreme summer tires are temperature sensitive. Manufacturers do not recommend freezing temps. The rubber can crack. Just another thing to consider.

How big of an issue is this? If absolutely necessary I could probably buy some cheapo tires for the couple really cold months in central va

that's what I do … actually for the truck (which is what I drive most of the time in the winter) I have dedicated snow tires for it

for the "racecar" I have some cheapO steelies with worn out nothing tires that it sits on through out the winter, with the a-x wheels and tires inside

I'm a fan of the sub 200 treadwear tires for use 9months a year here in Cincy. Looking forward to my new set of Rivals showing up on the Rabbit shortly...

Both the wagon and the E30 have ~200 treadwear summer tires and do great with them in the dry, and well enough in the wet that I've never had a problem with them. They're both one step below the "extreme" category, so they still last well enough. I do autocross both cars and do track days in the E30, but both are so outclassed in autocross because of modifications that I really just drive to have fun anymore.

I would not even consider trying to drive with them in the snow. I did once, and that was the last time. It takes a lot to scare me behind the wheel, and I was getting a little white knuckled. Can't stop, can't go, can't turn. Even the 420 TW Kumho summer tires on the SVX suck in the snow. Plus, summer tires tend to get square after sitting overnight if it's below about 40 degrees out.

fiesta54 wrote:

trucke wrote: Is your M3 kept inside? The extreme summer tires are temperature sensitive. Manufacturers do not recommend freezing temps. The rubber can crack. Just another thing to consider.

How big of an issue is this? If absolutely necessary I could probably buy some cheapo tires for the couple really cold months in central va

It could shorten tire life. I put all seasons on for the car to sit outside since we have seen below freezing temps. I really with I could have gotten something else that was sticker. I have other wheels and tires for autocross.

Each manufacturer rates theirs a little differently. So you would need to see the recommendations for you selection.

You do not want your tires rubber to start cracking.

TireRack Storage of Performance Summer Tires in Cold Tempartures

Don't drive summer performance tires in cold temperatures