To chump or not to chump

wvumtnbkr wrote: Second, our 2nd gen RX7 is legal in both Chump and Lemons just by switching from our coilover type springs back to the cut stock springs. That's it. We don't get penalty laps in either series. ... What I am trying to say is that with the right car, you can race BOTH series easily / legally / reliably. You just need to pick the right car.

I don't mean to be contrary and I'm not saying that you can't do what you're describing, but there's a general loophole in the Lemons rules that basically amounts to this -- if you show up and do 1 race in a $500 car, you can spend a little bit more than $500 to fix stuff that breaks. After a half a dozen races you've probably replaced everything that's failure-prone on the car, but you've also spent way more than $500.

If you've been racing for a number of years with the same car your perception my be skewed. I took a quick look on the CLs in my areas of observation and I didn't find any 2nd generation RX-7s for anywhere close to $500 in any sort of running condition or with fewer than 200k miles.

When we started looking for a lemons car a couple of years ago, it was eye-opening just how hard it was to find something that was even remotely track-worthy for $500; in the current used car market, if it's street legal and runs it's a $1000 car typically. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a true lemons legal RX-7 with a "good" engine and reasonably fresh suspension components that would be reliable.

And that's sorta why ChumpCar quietly abandoned the whole $500 premise.

I have raced about 20 Lemons races. I have done about 10 chump races.

I Currently own 3 2nd gen RX7s. I paid about 475$ for the most expensive one.

If you show up to Lemons with a stockish 2nd gen RX7 and stockish suspension, they WILL NOT sweat you.

Also, our first race with this particular car (this year) we finished 6th. The second race with this car we won. I have only changed little things that broke. (stock radiator, some failed bushings, some electrical stuff). All of that stuff could have been changed before the first race and we wouldn't have had penalty laps.

Lemons inspectors know what they are looking for. It is 100% suspension related. If you have cheaty suspension, you will get penalty laps. If you do not, you will not.

Rob R.

p.s. Lemons doesn't really care what you paid for the car either. buy used shocks, buy new stock bushings, cut your springs, replace radiator hoses, replace spark plugs, plug wires, maybe radiator, and go race.

wvumtnbkr wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Thats weird. It looks like there needs to eb some clarification on the Alfas. However, I would think the older stuff would carry the same $150.00 value as the oldest one on the list.

It's almost as if they were looking at a European availability list.

But I'm sure it would be easy to clear up.

I do like the fixed nature of the costing, that's very cool

start with one early saturn sc2

remove stock interior

add one set lowering springs

add one set OE replacement struts

add one shift light set for 6000 RPM

add one set aggressive brake pads

run at the front of the pack at handling tracks

run upper mid-pack at power tracks

SC2's with the DOHC motor are pretty quick. But I've also seen several blow up, although we are back to the 'prep' issue again.

wvumtnbkr wrote: p.s. Lemons doesn't really care what you paid for the car either. buy used shocks, buy new stock bushings, cut your springs, replace radiator hoses, replace spark plugs, plug wires, maybe radiator, and go race.

So to be clear, it sounds like you're saying that we should cheat. Or at least that there are the rules, and then there are the "rules," which is an obnoxious reality about ChumpCar that I didn't learn until after we'd bought the car and showed up to our first race. I didn't realize that Lemons had the same "rules."

In any case, thanks for the suggestions everyone, but I'm not particularly looking for car suggestions -- whatever we end up getting, we're not doing it on the cheap again -- my budget for safety gear alone is nearly $4k, because I've seen the sort of speeds that ChumpCar's running and I'm not going back out there with budget gear.

What I'm wondering is if we're not going to do it on a tight budget like we tried to do this year, is it still worth doing ChumpCar, or should we be looking at more "official" sorts of wheel to wheel racing?

No, I am not saying you should cheat.

I would email the powers that be at Lemons HQ and tell them what car you want to use and send some pics. Tell them you don't want to cheat but you are having a hard time finding a car for the right money.

The car we race was bought for less than $500.00. However, I have not shown any documentation or anythig to Judge phil. He looks under the hood (sometimes). Then he pushes on the suspension. If it isnt rock hard or overly smooth, you get a pass.

If you can find a $500.00 get it. if not, just email Judge Phil and tell him what ya wanna do.

Rob R.

I like the Chump Car vehicle values list. It's funny.

The heavier 93-97 Probe V6 is worth $400, while the 93-97 MX6 V6 is worth $250.

And looking at the rules... dear lord do i want to outfit this spare MX6 GT for Chump.

LeMons is fairly easygoing on the BS judging if the team shows up with the right attitude. They do look closely at suspension, since it's so easy to hide cheaty parts in the motor. I've recounted the story of the Miata team that showed up with a set of Bilsteins before.

In reply to Swank Force One:

The values were mainly collected over teh past 2 years. The values were taken directly from the teams running those vehicles (the teams AIV ads). It seems the probe teams didn't do as good of a job collecting those ads.

OP: Where are you located? I might have a 91 integra that's right up your alley.

In reply to Swank Force One:

I am assuming an MX6-GT is turbo charged. If that is the case, you must add $100.00 to the base price.

That puts your starting value at $350.00. Not bad, just something to consider.

Rob R.

So to be clear, it sounds like you're saying that we should cheat.

Here's your answer:

http://jalopnik.com/400309/what-would-smokey-do-24-hours-of-lemons-cheating-tips-from-judge-murilee

Rent. Way cheaper than owning and you typically wind up with a car that's well sorted (assuming you go with a good, proven team).

poopshovel wrote: OP: Where are you located? I might have a 91 integra that's right up your alley.

Central Ohio

wvumtnbkr wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: I am assuming an MX6-GT is turbo charged. If that is the case, you must add $100.00 to the base price. That puts your starting value at $350.00. Not bad, just something to consider. Rob R.

I'm talking the 93-97 MX6 V6s... they seem like a ringer waiting to happen at $250. Couple hundred pounds lighter than the equivalent Probe.

The MX6 GT, i have a different idea. I'd seek out an automatic MX6 GT if i was gunning for a ChumpCar upset. Starting value of $275, which leaves plenty of money to make it handle and be on the point end of the power/weight spectrum.

Curmudgeon wrote: LeMons is fairly easygoing on the BS judging if the team shows up with the right attitude. They do look closely at suspension, since it's so easy to hide cheaty parts in the motor. I've recounted the story of the Miata team that showed up with a set of Bilsteins before.

Miata with Bilsteins is pretty easy, since many of them came with them, stock. Not hard to come up with a serviceable (for crapcan racing standards) set for $100 or less.

I believe a team in PNW used Bilsteins on their Miata, but then didn't run springs, and chose to use BMW 5-series bump stops instead of springs. Worked surprisingly well.

Damnit... reading the rules has me thinkin bad thoughts about the old Accent we have for sale

Cretinx wrote: Rent. Way cheaper than owning and you typically wind up with a car that's well sorted (assuming you go with a good, proven team).

This is absolutely the way to go. Find a good team and join forces. You'll have a blast.

The Accent was one of those cars that I thought could work too.

Especially the 1.5SOHC Accents. That engine is indestructible. It'll be slow as balls and the brakes are weak (because it' slow, it doesn't need much) but it'll run the entire race..... and the next and the next and the next.....

steronz wrote:

poopshovel wrote: OP: Where are you located? I might have a 91 integra that's right up your alley.

Central Ohio

I'm in GA, with a rust free (GA rust free...not rust belt rust free) 91 for sale. Would include lowering springs, KYB's and spare wheels. PM me if interested.

Miata, Miata, Miata. At the end of our Sebring race, the field was pretty much Miata, Miata, Miata, E36, Miata, Honda product, E30, Miata.

....not that we've won any races or anything.