It’s kind of a treat that the Toyota GR86 even exists. In these modern times of 20 and 24, the market for small, affordable, rear-drive sporty cars is pretty much the GR86 and the twin Subaru BRZ.
Sure, the MX-5 is out there, but its lack of back seats–even if the GR86’s are mere tokens–and tighter confines put the Mazda …
Bah humbug.
Msterbee said:Bah humbug.
Believe me, we were all less-than-pleasantly surprised at the results, too.
It seems like the auto trans has surpassed the manual in almost every car if you're chasing time at this point. My how times have changed.
Could the off corner and accelaration differences between the two be because the auto only has a flex plate to spin up versus the sitck's flywheel and clutch
The stopwatch is important for competition, but how does it feel? There was reference in the article to not giving up time to midcorner balance, but that doesn't definitively answer whether it feels like a bag of oatmeal...
I'm prepared to be shocked and learn that we're entering the golden age of automatics that don't suck to drive. The auto-in-a-racecar feeler about the ZF 8HP was compelling, and I was blown away by how directly connected those feel in the F30 3-series (just toodling around town in a rental), but at this point I'm still under the impression that that trans is an anomaly. Is it?
This is good to know, as my knees are growing older far faster than the rest of me. So,(dramatic pause), for the first time in my 50 odd years of enthusiastic motoring, I opted for the automatic. I have primarily been autoXing the car and except for loosing about a second and a half at the launch it's been pretty competitive. When I finish getting it set up I I'll be taking it out for track days. I'm looking forward to it. All I have left to do is some trans work and a big brake kit.
In reply to Jesse Ransom :
It's not nearly as bad as others I've driven, the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts are very good, beyond that it's just good. Down shifts are somewhere in-between across the board, but they might be a little delayed if you downshift too soon, the computer won't let you downshift if it takes it over the redline. It's just something you need to train yourself for.
I'll have to see how it responds once I get the shift kit installed.
But which one is more fun?
SuperGman said:Could the off corner and accelaration differences between the two be because the auto only has a flex plate to spin up versus the sitck's flywheel and clutch
I think the mass of the torque converter effectively offsets the difference between the rotating mass of the clutch/flywheel vs flex plate/torque converter.
The torque multiplication benefit when there is a difference in torque converter input and output speed and the "slip" felt due to the fluid coupling may let the the engine gain rpm quicker and have a higher effective torque with the auto on corner exits.
RadBarchetta said:But which one is more fun?
Right? No one is buying an 86 to be the fastest at the track day.
In reply to No Time :
Most of these modern automatics, especially in manual mode, will lock the converter in most or all gears. Often you can feel a 1-2 shift, converter lock, and then all of the shifts after that use very aggressive torque control to protect the transmission and limit shift shock for the rest of the shifts. So, not a lot of torque multiplication going on once you're moving. The efficiency benefit of this kind of shift strategy is a big part of why automatics caught up to manuals in terms of fuel efficiency and acceleration where up until the mid to late 2000s automatics were usually a step or two behind.
This lockup strategy is also the difference between an acceptably fun automatic and a typical slushbox to me. That direct connection between the engine and the wheels makes a big difference to me at least.
CyberEric said:It seems like the auto trans has surpassed the manual in almost every car if you're chasing time at this point. My how times have changed.
Sports car.
I think they still have a ton of ground to make up in slower cars, no? Is an auto faster in a base model Civic?
In reply to gearheadE30 :
Interesting and today I learned something new.
I was still thinking the lockup disengagement occurs under high load high throttle conditions like the older style of implementation enabling the torque converter to add some multiplication.
Jesse Ransom said:The stopwatch is important for competition, but how does it feel? There was reference in the article to not giving up time to midcorner balance, but that doesn't definitively answer whether it feels like a bag of oatmeal...
Absolutely does not feel like an oatmeal bag. It's perfectly drivable in the corners.
Really the only place you truly notice a difference is standing starts. The manual lets you engage the clutch with the engine already well into the powerband, while the auto is a little more sluggish for those first 10-12 mph while the engine fights the torque converter for rpm.
Also, I think a lot of the fact that the auto beat the manual is due to the configuration of The FIRM. If you notice the speed traces, the manual is rapidly catching and getting ready to overtake the auto above about 80 mph. I think on a faster track the manual's better pull toward the top of 4th puts a real gap on the auto.
But, yeah, I was definitely one of the ones on the "let's not even waste the gas money to test the automatic" and they talked me into it and I was dead wrong. The thing was a blast.
Due to knee injuries I haven't driven a manual transmission car in about 15 years. I don't think I ever will again. I don't miss them for a second.
Time and time again the auto proves to be the faster option and the response is usually the same.
"sure, but they aren't fun."
I don't want to yuck your yum, but working harder to be slower doesn't seem like fun to me.
RadBarchetta said:But which one is more fun?
Interested in this answer as well. Unless it is a full on track car that never sees the street this is irrelevant but I am betting that only one percent or less of these cars are purchased for track only. The rest are taken on date night or down a twisty road for fun and I am sure many are daily driven (where the auto trans may be the better choice).
AClockworkGarage said:
Due to knee injuries I haven't driven a manual transmission car in about 15 years. I don't think I ever will again. I don't miss them for a second.
Time and time again the auto proves to be the faster option and the response is usually the same.
"sure, but they aren't fun."
I don't want to yuck your yum, but working harder to be slower doesn't seem like fun to me.
Except that Randy Pobst was faster in a manual 1LE than the auto at Laguna Seca, despite every magazine and even Chevrolet themselves insisting that the auto was faster.
There's even a story I heard Hans Stuck tell about when computer modeling was being used for the first time. Hans went quicker than what all the computer modeling said should be the perfect lap. One engineer thought it should be impossible for him to beat the computer time, and spent all night pouring over the data. In the morning, the engineer got on him for going flat out in a corner where the computer said he should lift.
I'm not ready to concede to our computer overlords yet.
In reply to racerfink :
People used to make the same argument against ABS brakes: That the top professional drivers in the world still being able to beat it under ideal conditions is somehow a reason against using it for everybody else the rest of the time. The automatic transmissions don't even necessarily take any control away from the driver, just the physical clutch pedal and slow shifts. And we all know that competition racing drivers are always out for the competitive advantage, even if it means making the car less 'fun' or 'entertaining' to drive. Setting the car up to slightly oversteer every corner may be more fun, but if a slight understeer results in faster lap times, then that's the setup they'll use. Why should type and tuning of the transmission be thought of any differently than the suspension or other mechanical components when it comes to setting up a car for competition use?
I agree that there is a romantic nostalgia that I greatly enjoy about performing the dance of driving a manual transmission aggressively, but there are finally autos capable of doing literally everything else better. I for one find that to be something worth celebrating and enjoying in it's own right. I actually find myself looking forward to more good (if not great) automatics.
.
Don't automatic FRZ86 also only have an open diff? Despite conventional wisdom being that LSD is always better, it has me considering what part that might have played in the outcome.
EDIT: Nevermind, unlike the Miata, it appears that the FRZ86 actually doesn't screw over drivers wanting the performance advantages of a limited slip in their auto trans cars.
In reply to ProDarwin :
I don't know about Civics, but the last gen Mazda 3 was quicker with the auto than with the manual. I don't think it's limited to sports cars anymore.
In reply to CyberEric :
interesting. Can you point to a track test?
Ah, I was referring to 0-60. I think it was Car and Driver. tested both at different times. Auto was 6.8, manual was 7.2 if I remember correctly.
I'm not sure about around a track. I don't remember any data about that.
Son has a 2023 GR86 manual transmission that I'm holding and driving while he's deployed.
It's about the worst manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven. It really sucks the fun out of driving a manual. The clutch is numb and the off-idle tby throttle response is both delayed and inconsistent. Makes stalling and barking the tires a regular event in normal street driving. You do not want to try to jump out into traffic with this car.
Has problems in hard driving too, with a delayed throttle closure at high rpms. Nice to listen to the engine bounce off the rev limiter when you push in the clutch to shift. Makes engine braking erratic and unreliable.
As well all the useful stuff for street driving is deleted in the manual transmission package.
I've driven the automatic models. They're a better machine. Which is sad.
AClockworkGarage said:
Due to knee injuries I haven't driven a manual transmission car in about 15 years. I don't think I ever will again. I don't miss them for a second.
Time and time again the auto proves to be the faster option and the response is usually the same.
"sure, but they aren't fun."
I don't want to yuck your yum, but working harder to be slower doesn't seem like fun to me.
Except that I enjoy the engagement of driving a manual gear box.
So "it's not fun" is a legitimate reason for me to skip the auto in the "fun car."
In reply to ГУЛАГ мальчик УР следующий :
I completely agree. In the graphic above you need to replace "slippage" and "slow shifts" with "skill" and "talent". That then changes "excuses" to "fun".
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