For those that still think JD Power means anything, read the second paragraph.
Interesting article.
http://www.wheels.ca/newsFeatures/article/784130
For those that still think JD Power means anything, read the second paragraph.
Interesting article.
http://www.wheels.ca/newsFeatures/article/784130
zomby woof wrote: For those that still think JD Power means anything, read the second paragraph. Interesting article. http://www.wheels.ca/newsFeatures/article/784130
I got some friends who went around the country putting in a bunch of those new plants. 80 hour weeks were expected. If you didn't keep up you were out. Think about that.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm glad I insisted on a toyota from Japan in 2006.
They will recover because they have good bones. They have been a class act of a company in the past and they'll get there again. I expect lots of bloodletting from the company shortly.
But seriously. Analyze how fast they grow and then normalize the issues across that... I think you'll find very few companies in the history of the world could come close to what they did.
ignorant wrote: ugh.... You could take the literal interpretation of what I wrote or you could take it to mean that the company has grown too fast and is now full of inexperienced people. In 2005 and 06 Toyota tossed an offer at nearly anyone graduating from my old school with an ME degree and SAE baja/forumula experience...
Dude, you say that, and then come back that you are glad you "insisted" for a Japanese made car. Which is which?
Saying "you take me wrong" in one post followed a few later by "I'm glad I insisted on a Japanese built X" are opposites. Toyota should be Toyota- regardless of where the car is built.
E-
alfadriver wrote: Saying "you take me wrong" in one post followed a few later by "I'm glad I insisted on a Japanese built X" are opposites. Toyota should be Toyota- regardless of where the car is built. E-
2 points
By your logic... They should have been the same parts with the same tolerances running in the same tolerance bands....
I also confused threads. In another thread I said something flipant about too many americans in the company, which is what my above post adresses.
white american devils...why dont you all go back to europe? leave all things brain related to the japeneeeeesh demigods and their all powerful calculators. You petty westerners havent the mental capacity to carry the 2 when converting the square root to metric, so you all shall be blamed for the downfalls of the world!!!
If there is interest, I'll relay the story of some personal experience that really convinced me that the purchasing japanese made was the way to go.. It involves me diagnosing an issue related to a turbocharger that had two suppliers for the compressor wheel. one supplier was in the US and one was in japan. Neither supplier did anything wrong, the design was faulty. It was the reactions to my requests for change that made the story very interesting.
ignorant wrote: If there is interest, I'll relay the story of some personal experience that really convinced me that the purchasing japanese made was the way to go.. It involves me diagnosing an issue related to a turbocharger that had two suppliers for the compressor wheel. one supplier was in the US and one was in japan. Neither supplier did anything wrong, the design was faulty. It was the reactions to my requests for change that made the story very interesting.
Totally different issue.
What you are implying in many of your posts is that US made Toyotas are inferior to the Japanese made Toyotas.
This post says that the design spec from, say, Ford is different than, say, Toyota. That is an issue with who designed them, not who builds them. How can you make a judgement on Japanese vs US when the design spec is wrong? So what if the Japanese company reacted differently to the spec? That has nothing to do with Japanese vs. US, but experience and judgement. I also know that the main US manufacturer of turbos does not have as much experience in turbo design, based on what they deliver to us, than many of the Japanese companies. But that has zero to do with where the company is, but who the company is.
And how you make the extension that Japanese Toyotas are better than US Toyotas from that is pretty funny. Sad, but funny.
Read between the lines in this recall- Toyota is claiming that the Japanese made Lexuses have throttle problems due to mats. And the same issues in their Toyotas are limited to the US made cars with US made parts. I see this as a reaction to not alarm the world wide buyers of their products, when, most likely, the issue is exactly the same on the Japanese made Lexues, the Chinese made Toyotas, and US made and sourced Toyotas- a spec for the pedal that is not robust to humidity and dirt.
Enough from me. It's pretty clear that you are pretty anti US, but can't admit it. And I see that I'm arguing with an engineer, which is a no win situation (in both directions).
Eric
alfadriver wrote: What you are implying in many of your posts is that US made Toyotas are inferior to the Japanese made Toyotas.
I'm going to argue cutural differences and work ethics have more to play there than anything.
Long story short, the issue I talked about above was where I to fix an issue I needed both suppliers to run to a different side of a surface finish spec to alleviate a slipping problem. I got the Us supplier on the phone and they said OK. I sent them an email and they did it. They were/are a great organization. The japanese supplier, when presented with the same info, believed that what they had been doing was wrong from the beginning. They were embarrassed at dissapointing their customer. The next week I had the Director of Manufacturing, the Shop foreman, the machining manager, the director of quality and the metrology lab manager on my doorstep( account manager as well). They brought their surfometer that they recently had calibrated at mitutoyo's HQ. They also brought certifications for all their QC equipment. I've never had more people over the age of 50 appologizing to a young guy before in my life. It was incredible. They were damn serious about quality.
Agreed. This kind of philosophy was key to the Japanese mfg's management culture, beginning in the last 70's and peaked the mid-90's, IMO.
Japan didn't have an established industrial culture in the 50s and 60s. They learned everything they could from American management pioneers, such as Deming, and embraced and executed on those principles.
By the mid-90's, the Japanese had it tied up. To keep up with demand, they had to globalize. Globalization has hurt their quality.
Toyota specifically is in a difficult position. They aren't known for being engineering innovators, like Honda/Acura. They aren't sporty / fun-to-drive like Mazda and Nissan. They are coasting on a sterling reputation for quality that was earned over a decade ago, and has arguably been undeserved for the last 8-10 years.
But VW has forever had a reputation for dubious (at best) quality, and they just took over the top volume spot from Toyota. Maybe this is just the inevitable result of their aim to be the top car mfg?
They should take notes from the US car industry: A tarnished reputation takes a long time to get over.
Tyler, your history lesson - as well constructed as it is - still fails to address the point that Toyota/Lexus is intentionally misconstruing the truth to fit their agenda - the problem at hand is being explained in 2 different ways to appease the unwashed masses worldwide.
Toyota messed up...plain and simple. To say or imply that the cars spec'd with American made parts are inherently poorer in quality than their asian born counterparts is an unfair, biased and ridiculous claim. 10-15 years ago, maybe id let that one go .Anymore, though, design and execution practices are being innovated on a global scale - as well as the lessons learned therin. We (being everybody...on all continents) are too well informed (thanks Al Gore and your 1ntraw3bz) to allow the competition to get a leg up just because theyre willing to use their vernier caliper more often than you.
Toyota was pushing their "our quality is better than your quality" campaign looooong after they started producing cars here in the states. Now it just happens to be convenient to whip the 'murikin leg of the company to save face everywhere else.
Toyota has no one to blame but themselves for the mess that they currently find themselves in. Ill-advised cost cutting measures, an unsustainable expansion, out sourcing suppliers, a severe shortage of engineering staff,etc,etc,etc have all combined to their declining quality. Even the bail-out they received from their government apparently hasn't helped.
Consider that:
Over the last few years, Toyota quality has slipped dramatically as they continued their relentless pursuit, not of well built vehicles, but a desire to become the world's largest automaker. As early as 2003, Toyota began recalling hundreds of thousands of vehicles in the United States. In 2004,the number increased fivefold to over one million vehicles. By 2005, Toyota had begun recalling nearly 2 million in Japan. Additionally, Toyota recalls in the United States soared to over 2 million in 2005. Now, here we are in 2009, with Toyota recalls totaling over 9 million vehicles worldwide! Their quality problems have hardly been limited to the recent unintended acceleration issue. Their Tundra trucks have been recalled due to drive shaft failure and the NHTSA have been investigating the Tundra for premature frame rusting. Additionally, Consumer Reports now ranks Ford quality as equal to or better than Toyota's.
My, how the mighty have fallen. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I'm predicting some type of massive and costly "rewards" program for Toyota owners/buyers in the very near future. There will be a PR blitz and something along the lines of a warranty extension, free service, rebates,etc. Anything to offset the indecisive, rambling, "asleep at the wheel" response to date.
I'm sure they will recover from this, as they do produce a high quality vehicle for the most part. Their recent offerings are hardly the perfect, no flaw product that they and some of their more rabid supporters would have you believe, though.
Lots of newer Toyotas showing up on the local craigslist.
I know this cuz I never drank the cool aid!
Lexus - not built in USA - bad floor mats = meh, no biggie, well simply replace the mats (and these pesky pedals since we're in there)
Toyota - partially built in the USA - have inferior western made tomfoolery = not fit for the rest of the civilized world.
both are malfunctioning to the point of the demise of their owners/operators, but only the American made ones are based on a truly mechanical failure...and that failure is the result of incompetency.
puh leeez
"Hey rest of the world, Our Lexi are immaculate machines and are perfect in every way except this silly mat which we can easily replace, but those damn lazy Americans, and their crappy manufacturing, and shoddy workmanship have laid their terribleness upon the great Toyota name, and therefore are to blame. Anyone who buys a car made by them, even if it bears our name, deserves to die!"
The fruit punch needs more sugar
I can't help but wonder if they knew about this problem during C4C but kept it quiet to sell all they could while they could.
Dunno about (c)kool aid etc but I do remember the infamous motorized seat belt recall. For those not in the know, in the 1980's the safety Nazis decreed a seat belt design which would buckle you in automatically. Toyota, along with Ford and a couple of others, opted for an electronic system with a retractor that ran up the A pillar, over the door opening and then down the B pillar where it stopped.
The logic unit for this whole mess was mounted below the center console, safely out of harm's way- or so the engineers thought. There started to be quite a few failures, when the barfed logic units were disassembled the engineers discovered that they were full of crumbs, coffee, Coca Cola, all kinds of crap. Toyota issued a recall which consisted of a plastic cover that was zip tied in place to prevent fluids from getting into the unit and the unit would be replaced if it was contaminated.
The interesting part was that one of the high muckety mucks at Toyota was being interviewed about the whole thing and he (rightly) said that the true cause of the problem was stuff being spilled in the console. The dumb part: he didn't stop there. He said the problem was nonexistent in Japan and blamed the average American's slob tendencies. (Dunno about the average Japanese, but over here I can tell you first hand that people here in the States are PIGS.) So he was in a way right but of course he was tarred and feathered and run out of Toyota on a rail, after of course genuflecting and kissing ass to make up for opening his mouth.
So this Japan vs the US attitude is nothing really new.
This all sounds like a Tom Clancy book.
Parents had a 90 Civic Sedan with those belts. I have a mother who liked to drum on the retractor in the center with her fingertips while listening to music, it would lock the belt in place and PULL her into the seat when she opened the door. The system often did a similar but more painful squeeze to one of my younger sisters slightly overweight friends about half the times she first closed the door.
cwh wrote: This all sounds like a Tom Clancy book.
More like John Grisham.
Interestingly enough... if you spend enough time in a 90-93 Celica in the passenger seat, you WILL notice that the car will spontaneously let go of the seatbelt at least once a week. (Might be because of all the fatass americans that sit in the seats.)
I've only been in two cars with those stupid automatic seat belts that worked.
1) a 1988 Camry
2) My MX6
Come to think of it, while I was at the 'Yota dealer 60 Minutes/ 20-20/one of those news (infotainment, same type of people who brought you rigged Chevy pickup truck gas tanks) shows had a big EXPOSE!!!!! of seat belt buckles. It appeared that on many makes and models, if you hit the buckle the right way inertia would make the buckle disengage. On the following Monday one of the other service advisors had a guy in a 4Runner showing him how, if you hit the buckle with the sole of a shoe, it would disengage. The guy was demanding new seat belt buckles.
4cylndrfury wrote: Tyler, your history lesson - as well constructed as it is - still fails to address the point that Toyota/Lexus is intentionally misconstruing the truth to fit their agenda - the problem at hand is being explained in 2 different ways to appease the unwashed masses worldwide.
Imagine a huge ass global corporation having an agenda? Failing to tell the whole truth, given the possible scope of their liability? ;)
Let's not forget how quick Ford threw Firestone under the bus when their crappy OEM tire spec was killing Explorer owners a few years back.
I see your point, but I just don't feel as militant about it.
Their culpability will depend on what they knew, when they knew it and what they did in the interim before hitting the 'stop' button.
Then there is the possibility that they still have no clue what the hell is going on...
Nothing a good old fashioned throttle cable and $.25 floor mat clip couldn't fix.
Did any of you watch "The International"
Reeks of a big business cover up IMHO
cwh wrote: This all sounds like a Tom Clancy book.
Debt of Honor
wiki said: On Interstate 40 in Eastern Tennessee, a car accident involving a tractor-trailer and two Japanese-made cars results in the deaths of six people (2 adults, 2 teenagers, a toddler, and an infant). The accident involves the failure of both fuel tanks in the Japanese cars, which causes an explosion. It is revealed that the Japanese-made fuel tanks were manufactured below proper safety standards, which caused them to fail. This stirs long-standing resentments stemming from Japan's protectionist trade policies, and trade negotiations with Japan grind to a halt.
US and japan go to war over this, and in the end, A japanesse air line pilot crashes a jumbo jet into the capitol building
On a side note, one of the book reveiws claimed that the crash at the end was so pluasable that it was suprising that it hadn't been tried yet...
Datsun1500 wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: I know this cuz I never drank the cool aid!You have figured out the one of the greatest cover ups in recent history but can't spell Kool-Aid correctly even though it was spelled right in the photo you were posting. You must know more than the rest of us....
wow...really? your argument is my spelling? thats pretty weak man
Datsun1500 wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: wow...really? your argument is my spelling? thats pretty weak manNo, my argument is you are assuming things, and making up other stuff.
then say so...a discussion like that can be civil.
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