Toyota, when it rains it pours :)

They just can't catch a break can they http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124050261

Cliff notes, FBI raid three of Toyota's suppliers in an anti trust probe of the automaker. This is nothing to do with the recent recalls although the timing couldn't better, or worse depending on who you are.

On one hand I do feel for Toyota, the recall side of things is becoming a witch hunt, but at the same time I've seen Ford and the other domestics hunted and hounded for years for no good reason so it's hard to feel sorry for them.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: at the same time I've seen Ford and the other domestics hunted and hounded for years for very good reasons so it's hard to feel sorry for them.

I fixed it for you

And then the fighting started...

the irony of the US gov't going after Toyota on antitrust....considering the US gov't actually OWNS a good chunck of GM. No conflict of interest there

Way to affect the competitive balance the way only a government can, lol...

If you don't believe the Japanese government has been "affecting the competitive balance" for decades, you haven't been paying attention.

Besides, was it a bigger conflict of interest when the government employee(working for the US government-NHTSA) prematurely ended a recent inquiry into unsafe Toyota vehicles. A few months later he resigned and appeared on Toyota's payroll as a lobbyist. What about the numerous Toyota cheerleaders in Washington-many now responsible for investigating the multitude of faulty products and violations of law by the Japanese government supported megacorporation?

From the Boston Globe:

"The Senate's lead Toyota investigator, West Virginia Democrat Jay Rockefeller, credits himself with lobbying Toyota to build a factory in his state. A member of a House investigating panel, California Rep. Jane Harman, represents the district of Toyota's U.S. headquarters and has financial ties to the company.

Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee, has known Toyota's founding family since the 1960s. He was so closely involved with Toyota's selection of Buffalo, W.Va., for a factory that he slogged through cornfields with Toyota executives scouting locations and still mentions his role in the 1990s deal to this day."

"Toyota's U.S. operations are based in Torrance, Calif., in Harman's district. She serves on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which is investigating Toyota's recall.

California Rep, Harman and her husband, Sidney, held at least $115,000 in Toyota stock as of her most recent financial disclosure report. The company to which the couple owes much of their multimillion-dollar fortune, Harman International Industries, founded by Sidney Harman, sells vehicle audio and entertainment systems to Toyota. The two companies teamed up on a charitable education project in 2003, when Sidney Harman was Harman International's executive chairman. He retired from the Harman board in December 2008."

Toyota has a long and in my opinion, sordid history in this country when it comes to peddling influence, destroying US suppliers with Japan, Inc subsidized companies, bribing local polititians, crushing attempts by competitors to sell their products in Japan, creating(by various means) inaccurate perceptions of unshakable quality and "green-ness", hiding product flaws with hidden "recalls", ignoring reports of declining quality, enjoying a guaranteed myopic and jingoistic group of home buyers that will only buy Japanese cars, a fawning press and a callous disregard for their customers when the saki hit the fan.

Besides, Congress doesn't "own" GM-we do. And given the choice between our companies failing or Japan's? I root for the home team.

forzav12 wrote: Toyota has a long and in my opinion, sordid history in this country when it comes to peddling influence, destroying US suppliers with Japan, Inc subsidized companies, bribing local polititians, crushing attempts by competitors to sell their products in Japan, creating(by various means) inaccurate perceptions of unshakable quality and "green-ness", hiding product flaws with hidden "recalls", ignoring reports of declining quality, enjoying a guaranteed myopic and jingoistic group of home buyers that will only buy Japanese cars, a fawning press and a callous disregard for their customers when the saki hit the fan. Besides, Congress doesn't "own" GM-we do. And given the choice between our companies failing or Japan's? I root for the home team.

In my best Blazing Saddles Gabby Johnson character impression, Rah rah!

Somehow, Toyota still has this reputation of being the be all and end all of quality. Despite everything that has come out recently, Toyota's E36 M3 still doesn't stink to most of the blind, brainwashed buying public.

I don't get it.

forzav12 wrote: Toyota has a long and in my opinion, sordid history in this country when it comes to peddling influence, destroying US suppliers ,

Replace toyota with Ford and GM and Chrylser and it still works.

You should do some research on why the trolley system died in this country and buses came into vogue....

ignorant wrote:

forzav12 wrote: Toyota has a long and in my opinion, sordid history in this country when it comes to peddling influence, destroying US suppliers ,

Replace toyota with Ford and GM and Chrylser and it still works. You should do some research on why the trolley system died in this country and buses came into vogue....

Wasn't it a flaw with a US supplier's part that started this entire E36 M3storm, too?

Glass houses and all that jazz.

93celicaGT2 wrote: Wasn't it a flaw with a US supplier's part that started this entire E36 M3storm, too?

1. This is anti trust and nothing to do with that.

2. The parts were built to Toyota's standars

3. Still ignoring the electronics issues that aren't anything to do with the pedal, plus all the other issues Toyota have had/are having

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Wasn't it a flaw with a US supplier's part that started this entire E36 M3storm, too?

1. This is anti trust and nothing to do with that. 2. The parts were built to Toyota's standars 3. Still ignoring the electronics issues that aren't anything to do with the pedal, plus all the other issues Toyota have had/are having

Yeah, i know, i was just going along with the little side conversation going on.

But as for point 2: so were the Denso parts.

With you on 1 and 3.

Actually, CTS is Canadian.

ignorant wrote: Replace toyota with Ford and GM and Chrylser and it still works.

Replace GM, Ford, and Toyota with any major company, and it still works.

As far as the US supplier, my undertanding is that the problem predates them getting the contract, so it's safe to say it was the design, not the manufacture. Besides, there's still some debate as to whether the unintended acceleration is due to sticking pedals, floor mats, or electrontics.

Anyhow, as much as I as a former Ford employee m enjoing watching Toyota get their turn in the barrel, this is becoming a witch hunt.

P71 wrote: Actually, CTS is Canadian.

Not as far as i know... It's based in Indiana. Couple hours from me.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

ignorant wrote: Replace toyota with Ford and GM and Chrylser and it still works.

Replace GM, Ford, and Toyota with any major company, and it still works. Anyhow, as much as I as a former Ford employee m enjoing watching Toyota get their turn in the barrel, this is becoming a witch hunt.

Agreed. I'm not saying that Toyota shouldn't be investigated, or saying that there aren't any problems. It's just WRONG to be turned out like this by a competing company. (GM)

93celicaGT2 wrote:

P71 wrote: Actually, CTS is Canadian.

Not as far as i know... It's based in Indiana. Couple hours from me.

They have a (one of many) factory in Indiana. Corporate is in Elkhart though.

http://www.ctscorp.com/locations/locations.htm

That's what I get for trusting AutoBlog...

P71 wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

P71 wrote: Actually, CTS is Canadian.

Not as far as i know... It's based in Indiana. Couple hours from me.

They have a (one of many) factory in Indiana. Corporate is in Elkhart though. http://www.ctscorp.com/locations/locations.htm That's what I get for trusting AutoBlog...

forzav12 wrote: Besides, Congress doesn't "own" GM-we do. And given the choice between our companies failing or Japan's? I root for the home team.

So you're attending board meetings, and participating in car design and marketing and budget for GM? If I own GM, I'd like to cash in my shares and move them to Ford, where they'll actually make money. Not subsidize a company that doesn't seem to "get it."

Bailing out GM wasn't the right thing to do. Ford took minimal bailouts (more like low-interest loans) and managed to get themselves back up. If GM can't survive on its own (which I truly want it to), it shouldn't survive. This is the way free-market works. Otherwise we just end up being the USSR all over again, and that didn't work out too well.

forzav12 wrote: Besides, Congress doesn't "own" GM-we do. And given the choice between our companies failing or Japan's? I root for the home team.

Why didn't i get an opt-out option? I would much rather root for a team that i have an active interest in.

I certainly don't own any GM by choice, i'll tell you that much.

ignorant wrote:

forzav12 wrote: Toyota has a long and in my opinion, sordid history in this country when it comes to peddling influence, destroying US suppliers ,

Replace toyota with Ford and GM and Chrylser and it still works. You should do some research on why the trolley system died in this country and buses came into vogue....

Yes, but Toyota has been getting a free pass. It doesn't matter where the faulty parts were made, either. The recent scandal is a result of Toyota losing sight of its vision and going "all out" to be the #1 car company in America. The "old" Toyota would have moved slowly and cautiously enough that faulty parts--especially parts with safety implications--would not have made it to the consumer. The new Toyota, by their own admission (now), has been overly focused on growth.

I'm with you on the Trolley system. Add "highway lobby" and "GM" and "motorization" to your search terms. Post WWII Suburbanization. Etc.

irish44j wrote:

forzav12 wrote: Besides, Congress doesn't "own" GM-we do. And given the choice between our companies failing or Japan's? I root for the home team.

So you're attending board meetings, and participating in car design and marketing and budget for GM? If I own GM, I'd like to cash in my shares and move them to Ford, where they'll actually make money. Not subsidize a company that doesn't seem to "get it." Bailing out GM wasn't the right thing to do. Ford took minimal bailouts (more like low-interest loans) and managed to get themselves back up. If GM can't survive on its own (which I truly want it to), it shouldn't survive. This is the way free-market works. Otherwise we just end up being the USSR all over again, and that didn't work out too well.

Couple of corrections.

First- Ford did not get any bailout what so ever. None. What we did get were relatively high interest loans where the collateral was the F150 and the Ford logo. Ford is still very, very deeply in debt, but recovery is a lot stornger and earlier than anyone anticipated.

Second- part of GM's problems (outside of the bloated lines) was the complete lack of any credit in any useable form back at the end of 2008. That means that both customers could not get loans to buy cars (to generate some cash flow) nor could GM get investment loans like Ford did a few years ago. There's a lot more to the bailout than the simple support of the UAW- (remember, the UAW is less than 300k members, which is a pretty minor voting block). The ripple effect, which is partially being felt with what IS being shut down, would have been pretty bad.

All of the big companies in the US are very heavilly reliant on Wall Street, whether we want to or not. That's where the money is, and when it froze up, if you didn't already have money to loan, you were in an incredibly tight spot.

GM will survive- I've seen our analysis of the situation, and they are fine. I actually expect them to go back to private a lot sooner than all of you think.

Eric

alfadriver wrote: First- Ford did not get any bailout what so ever. None. What we did get were relatively high interest loans where the collateral was the F150 and the Ford logo. Ford is still very, very deeply in debt, but recovery is a lot stornger and earlier than anyone anticipated.

Finally, someone who understands that there's more to the "GM/Chrysler sux 'cause they took our money, Ford didn't" mindset. I'm not sure if Mulally really had the foresight, or if he was just extremely lucky in mortgaging the bejuebus out of Ford when he did.

When the proverbial crap hit the fan, and the credit market dried up, Ford was sitting on a pile of cash and is using it (to great effect) to weather the storm. I don't think GM and Chrysler could have burned through their non-unsubstantial cash reserves quicker even if they had had set fire to it.

Right now Ford has a lot of debt, but they're in fairly stable position and as long as they keep cranking out solid products, they'll be more than fine. GM and Chrysler doesn't have nearly as much debt, but they sold their soul to the White House in doing so. If they can keep putting out vehicles on par with the CTS's and Equinoxes, they'll be find, and who knows, maybe the public will make a few dimes when they do go public. It's Chrysler that I'm worried about, their new stuff from Fiat is still a ways away, and I'm not sure if it'll be any good when it does get here. Here's to hoping though.

And as a side note, I'm not sure if the big 'T' has a handle on this acceleration thing, but at this point I'll agree with whoever said it above that this is now a witch hunt...and a publicity stunt for congress.

[End Rant]

alfadriver wrote: - (remember, the UAW is less than 300k members, which is a pretty minor voting block).

true, but UAW interests in this are supported by all of the other unions, which collectively do make up a large voting bloc. I worked on "the Hill" for a few years and saw firsthad just what amazing influence the collective unions have on every aspect of lawmaking, from healthcare to defense acquisition...

klipless wrote: and Equinoxes, they'll be find, and who knows, maybe the public will make a few dimes when they do go public.

Whether or not it is a "good" vehicle is beside the point, because it's so stupid looking....and so people won't buy it. Even my wife (who I would assume is the target demographic) said it was ugly, and she's had some ugly cars over the years...

CTS, I fully agree. Too bad it's not a high-volume seller.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My buddy's wife wants to trade in her '05 RX330 for an Equinox Sport.