Track Tires Outlawed!

Well at least in Europe, can we be far behind? http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/236977/trackday_tyres_to_be_outlawed.html

"New legislation on tyre labelling and accompanying minimum standards to be introduced simultaneously in November 2012 will effectively end the production of road-legal trackday tyres. Tyres likely to be axed include the Dunlop Direzza, Toyo 888 (currently available on the Renaultsport Mégane R26.R), Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (Porsche GT3 and GT2) and Avon ACB10 (Caterham), along with a host of others.

The aim of the new regulations is to both raise all-round performance standards and to give buyers a greater understanding of the performance and environmental impact of each particular tyre before purchase. All road-legal tyres will have to display rating figures for rolling resistance (fuel efficiency), external noise and wet grip, and while the rating system and minimum levels have yet to be set, it is unlikely that track-biased tyres will be able to pass on all counts.

Tyre manufacturers are currently lobbying the European Parliament, but it will be very difficult for them to make a successful argument for tyres that allow drivers to corner faster in the dry but which offer a significantly lower level of performance the moment the surface becomes damp.

It is expected that trackday tyres will fall foul of the other parameters too, so their demise is something their manufacturers are already preparing for. James Bailey, Dunlop’s PR chief, believes it highly unlikely that trackday tyres will continue in their current form, although the company’s official position is that these regulations are positive as they will also remove poor performing cheap road tyres from the market. In its own braking tests the difference between the best and worst tyres fitted to a Mondeo stopping from 50mph on a wet surface was as much as five car lengths…

Porsche feels it’s too early to comment and that at this stage it is still a matter for the tyre companies. Once the regulations have been set, the German car maker will still request an appropriate level of performance from Michelin for its top models.

So what does the future hold? There will still be high-performance tyres made from a race-style compound though they are likely to have regular road-car tread patterns. However, they won’t be as fast or responsive as the current crop of trackday tyres, and for those of us who enjoy the extra performance and challenge presented by this specialist rubber that’s a real shame."

Looks like the RA1 would be safe tho.

I bet the manufactures will keep making tires like that anyway. And I will put them on my car even if they are illegal.

Sooo...the F1 and WRC guys have to comply, too?

Two things come to mind:

• I've always found it amazing that Renault actually uses the R888 as an OE tire.

• an R888 is going to outperform just about any other road tire on a "damp" or "wet" surface. Standing water? Not as good due to aquaplaning. But if it's simply a damp test then the track tires should actually perform better, no?

"while the rating system and minimum levels have yet to be set, it is unlikely that track-biased tyres will be able to pass on all counts. "

So, we don't know what the regulations are going to be, but the sky is obviously falling because there may be regulations.

What we need to do is hire more police forces so they can do tire checks daily on all major road ways to insure the proper tires are being worn every day.

I wonder if this is related, http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/21/nhtsa-introduces-new-tire-labels/

I can see trying to get a nice standard rating system for tires but if you dont know that track tires wont be good in a down poor then you shouldnt be allowed to own them. Remember the E46 M3 CSL? If you bought one and wanted the super slick road tires BMW made you sign a waiver saying you wont drive them in the rain. What's wrong with that? This isn't like seat belts where you don't think they work or don't think you'll need them, anyone allowed to drive a car should know whether or not you'll see rain and if your car can handle it.

But Keith has a point, it doesn't mean any of them are going away yet.

When track tires are outlawed, only outlaws will have track tires!

Will somebody please think of the children?!

alex wrote: Will somebody please think of the children?!

Would you please stay on topic.

We're bigger than Europe. I think.

We're not. 500 million plays 300 million.

we are a bigger carmarket.. but I think our market for true performance cars is MUCH smaller

I'll bet that the tire mfgs end up gaming the system and it makes performance tires just that much more expensive. Depending on how the testing is done, I can see a post-test change of compounds, or different compounds for some sizes, or the addition of a harder, shallow treaded layer to a shallow treaded soft compounded tire that would allow it to be shaved into something reasonable.

Want and need create markets and somebody, legal or otherwise, will service those markets.

It doesn't matter if the legislation is "proper" in your opinion or not Keith, all that matters is that they've let the camels nose into the tent. Once they can regulate something, they will do so for their own motives. Power is funny like that.

I didn't say if I thought it was "proper" (BTW, quotes are inappropriate because you're not actually quoting anything I wrote, you're actually making a big leap from my post). I am skeptical of ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING! posts on the internet when they involve legislation that has not been written and is described vaguely and inaccurately with no attribution. "They" don't necessarily scare me.

This is a report of what might happen if proposed legislation were enacted in a certain way and what it may do to a possible list of tires if the future legislation had possible minimum requirements.

Road surfaces are described both as "wet" and "damp". Well, an R comp will outperform most street tires on damp pavement, and "wet" does not necessarily mean standing water.

Tires are already regulated - note the existence of DOT-legal slicks. And also note the existence of DOT-legal slicks that are completely useless for driving on the street.

carguy123 wrote: Would you please stay on topic.

Totally on topic. Sorry if my satire was too thick for you.

Keith wrote: We're not. 500 million plays 300 million.

Yeah, but our leader can beat up their leaders.

Next time you are looking at the lenses on a car made after, oh, 1990 or so, look closely at the numbers. On many of them you will see one starting with an 'e'. That's the European spec that part meets. Lots of that stuff can be sold here in the States. Then look at the exhaust on motorcycles, it too will have one of those 'e' numbers. No big deal, right? Just some numbers, right?

Uh, yeah is IS a big deal. In some EU countries, you can't have an exhaust on your bike that doesn't have one of those numbers, this means no aftermarket exhaust. That means if you have to have a new exhaust you can ONLY buy the OE piece. So that's still no big deal over here, right?

Wrong. At one time the US Congress was considering aligning our specs with theirs, meaning the aftermarket exhaust market would shrivel right up. Cooler heads prevailed, but all it takes is a Congress and a President who want to ape our 'betters' across the pond.... Uh oh.

alex wrote:

carguy123 wrote: Would you please stay on topic.

Totally on topic. Sorry if my satire was too thick for you.

apparently his satire was too thick for you, i think he was (sarcastically) implying that the important thing was the tires, not the children

Keith wrote: We're not. 500 million plays 300 million.

I was going by the number of Miatas, not people.

Jensenman wrote: Wrong. At one time the US Congress was considering aligning our specs with theirs, meaning the aftermarket exhaust market would shrivel right up. Cooler heads prevailed, but all it takes is a Congress and a President who want to ape our 'betters' across the pond.... Uh oh.

Aligning our specs with theirs would also involve reformulating fuel across the US, relaxing emissions standards in California and making it a requirement to learn how to drive to get a license :) Heck, 15 years ago it would have meant a big step up in headlight quality. Don't lose too much sleep. Heck, they can't even agree what side of the road to drive on in Europe. Numbers on a motorcycle exhaust don't mean squat, it simply means the part meets regulations for several regulatory agencies. What those countries decide to allow people to do to those parts once the vehicle is registered is unrelated.

There's a country, for example, that won't let you install any parts that could affect the emissions of the car unless they've been through expensive tests to prove they don't. Every year, those emissions standards get higher. You have to have a visual check every two years to make sure your car doesn't have any illegal parts, and the police can even do a check on the side of the road. Better make sure we don't align ourselves with that country.

It is interesting reading modified car magazines from other countries. The regulations of that country drive the type of modifications you see. From what I remember, Belgians aren't allowed to touch the engine at all. So you see the craziest body modifications there. The UK makes it relatively easy to register a homebuilt car or even a very questionable track car like a Radical, so you see some pretty cool stuff in their kit industry.

alex wrote:

carguy123 wrote: Would you please stay on topic.

Totally on topic. Sorry if my satire was too thick for you.

Wasn't too thick, I totally understood, I'm sorry you didn't get me.

I was trying to make a funny about you thinking about children and..... oh well if ya have to splain 'em they weren't really funny in the first place.

PaulY wrote: What we need to do is hire more police forces so they can do tire checks daily on all major road ways to insure the proper tires are being worn every day.

Nah...they'll just install tread depth and compound sensors at photo-enforced intersections and send you a ticket in the mail.

Keith wrote:

Jensenman wrote: Wrong. At one time the US Congress was considering aligning our specs with theirs, meaning the aftermarket exhaust market would shrivel right up. Cooler heads prevailed, but all it takes is a Congress and a President who want to ape our 'betters' across the pond.... Uh oh.

Aligning our specs with theirs would also involve reformulating fuel across the US, relaxing emissions standards in California and making it a requirement to learn how to drive to get a license :) Heck, 15 years ago it would have meant a big step up in headlight quality. Don't lose too much sleep. Heck, they can't even agree what side of the road to drive on in Europe. Numbers on a motorcycle exhaust don't mean squat, it simply means the part meets regulations for several regulatory agencies. What those countries decide to allow people to do to those parts once the vehicle is registered is unrelated. There's a country, for example, that won't let you install any parts that could affect the emissions of the car unless they've been through expensive tests to prove they don't. Every year, those emissions standards get higher. You have to have a visual check every two years to make sure your car doesn't have any illegal parts, and the police can even do a check on the side of the road. Better make sure we don't align ourselves with that country.

You both missed and reinforced my point in two paragraphs. 1) aftermarket manufacturers don't have the resources to get certified and get that all important 'E' number. Then 2) it is entirely possible the standards you mention could spread EU wide. The manufacturers are going to make damn sure their stuff passes everywhere. Once they have a lock on that 'E' number, they can charge whatever they wish for that item since the gubmints say that is the ONLY thing you can use.

Keith wrote: It is interesting reading modified car magazines from other countries. The regulations of that country drive the type of modifications you see. From what I remember, Belgians aren't allowed to touch the engine at all. So you see the craziest body modifications there. The UK makes it relatively easy to register a homebuilt car or even a very questionable track car like a Radical, so you see some pretty cool stuff in their kit industry.

Britain seems to value their 'cottage car industry' history. The rest of Europe does not (German clunker bill, anyone?). ignorant can tell you there are BIG changes in diesel emissions coming soon within the EU.

Did you figure out what country I was describing?

Keith wrote: Did you figure out what country I was describing?

Uhhh...Denmark?

California?

(they are a separate country now aren't they?)