Trade the Miater for an M3?

Alright, I recently bought a 99 Miata. Loving it, except it is too small for me. I have already begun tall-guy mods, I had a gas pedal cut and welded, and I bought an aftermarket seat that sits lower.

However, I am now unsure that I want to begin dumping money into the car, if I will always be just a bit too large for it. I do love the little thing, but I dont know if it is worth the hassle.

I would buy an S2000, but people still demand arms and legs for them. I considered an E30, but I hear parts are becoming scarce. So I arrive at E36 M3:

http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/1393801?ad_cid=3

This one has had some pretty extensive work done, and it looks like the infamous cooling system has been taken care of. Steering rack has been rebuilt. He has receipts for everything. Anway, he will accept $5700 for it. I am just not sure I want to make the jump to BMW. Running cost for the Miata is cheap. Running cost for the M3 will be considerably more, I imagine. Then again, the M3 is much more practical.

What do you guys think? Good deal? Should I just look at the 328is?

Doesn't look bad, I'd want to know what CEL code was being thrown though.

Running costs for an E36 M3 are not high--- but will likely be higher than your Miata. That said, E36s are now older cars, and they will need a bit of extra care and feeding. Chances are the mechanicals will be sound, but bushings, interior, deferred maintenance items will need attention. That said--- they are wonderful to drive.

An S2000 won't have much more room than a Miata inside. IIRC the interior of an S2000 is more cramped than a Miata--- but my memory could be tainted as I once had to spend the night in an S2000 in the middle of an ice storm. My back still hurts just thinking about it.

I'd look for the nicest, most pampered E36 M3 you can find.....or maybe jump to an E46. The E46 cars have a much nicer interior, although the driving experience isn't quite as visceral.

I heard vertically the S2000 has more room, but was maybe more cramped as far as leg room. IDK, I need to sit in one.

Also, it seems like nice M3s command premiums. I wouldn't mind a thrashed interior, so long as the mechanics of the car are sound, and I get an awesome price. You are right though, a '97 is starting to get up there in age...

I'm 6'4" and fit better in my NA than the S2000 I test drove.

Desmond wrote: I heard vertically the S2000 has more room, but was maybe more cramped as far as leg room. IDK, I need to sit in one. Also, it seems like nice M3s command premiums. I wouldn't mind a thrashed interior, so long as the mechanics of the car are sound, and I get an awesome price. You are right though, a '97 is starting to get up there in age...

S2000 would have much more room for me than my Miata does, at 5'10" but with only a 29" inseam.. Trunk is bigger and more useable too.

Honestly, I'd rather tackle an E36 that needs the cooling system than all of the suspension bushings. The cooling system can be a half-day to day effort, the bushings can be a pain, and will likely take far more time.

If you're interested in this car, I'd definitely get a Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) from a BMW shop and figure out what the code is that's lighting up the CEL. In addition, I'd have them inspect the various bushings, rear shock mounts, guibo, center bearing support, etc.

I like my M3, but I would have no problem letting it go. I love my turbo Miata and would only trade it for another more capable roadster--it's the more rewarding car to drive.

What do you want your car to do? The M3 has a backseat and a real trunk, so it makes a much more practical, do-everything car. While I've enjoyed daily-driving my Miata's, they've never been my family's only vehicle. Many groups won't allow Miata's on track without extensive safety mods, but M3's are welcome at most any track day. I'm much more comfortable working on the Miata--it's less complex, stuff brakes less often, and consumables are noticeably less expensive then the M3. The M3's ABS and traction control are nice to have when the weather is a mess. Both have great aftermarket and local club support. I guess I'm spoiled to have both ;)

Having owned both and driven both on track, it's no comparison: go M3. Get the best you can for what you can afford, as long as it gets you into a car that you can drive for awhile without jumping into maintenance.

In terms of drivability at speed, the M3 is the German Miata, but with 2x more power, more tire and better brakes. You lose the droptop, but that's the only sacrifice. Everything else is an improvement.

Update: I drove the car tonight. Cosmetics are not the best. Seats are worn, and there is obvious wear on the body work. However, this guy is the 2nd owner, and has owned the car since it had 30k miles. He seemed very knowledgeable, and says that he knows most of the common wear parts of the car, having owned it for 14+ years. Its been to the track twice, but he doesnt beat on it while daily driving it (I checked the MPG average, and it said 22, so I believe him :D)

Anyway, the car appeared to be solid. Still, 140k miles on a German car is red flag for me. The engine is stock and even has the original clutch. Thats another red flag, but then again it grabbed very nicely, and felt like it had more like 50k on it than 150k.

I'll get an insurance quote tonight. I dunno, I like the Miata but I'm thinking a bigger car is better for me. Hopping in the M3 I realized how crammed I am inside the Miata.

I've heard the m3 is a way better track car than the Miata. I have a 90 Miata and everything that can wear out has worn out and if I'm going to put the money into it I'm going to sell it and have a yellow ap1 s2000. I also considered the m3 but German vs. japan reliability and also I couldn't go without the drop top. But I'm small enough that I don't have to worry about fitting in either car.

Desmond wrote: Update: I drove the car tonight. Cosmetics are not the best. Seats are worn, and there is obvious wear on the body work. However, this guy is the 2nd owner, and has owned the car since it had 30k miles. He seemed very knowledgeable, and says that he knows most of the common wear parts of the car, having owned it for 14+ years. Its been to the track twice, but he doesnt beat on it while daily driving it (I checked the MPG average, and it said 22, so I believe him :D) Anyway, the car appeared to be solid. Still, 140k miles on a German car is red flag for me. The engine is stock and even has the original clutch. Thats another red flag, but then again it grabbed very nicely, and felt like it had more like 50k on it than 150k. I'll get an insurance quote tonight. I dunno, I like the Miata but I'm thinking a bigger car is better for me. Hopping in the M3 I realized how crammed I am inside the Miata.

Since you're crammed in the Miata, maybe make it the auto-x/track day car. 140K on a 15+ year old car isn't bad, especially with the original clutch, so maybe you should actually look for an E46 M3 or 328, or check out a RX8 or other Japanese sports car.

140K on the original clutch tells me this car hasn't been badly abused. I would plan on replacing it fairly soon though. I wouldn't be concerned with that sort of mileage on the engine, as these engines regularly run well over 200K without issues. Mechanically they are very stout. Just keep an eye on the cooling system.

22mpg seems a bit low though. I get 24-25mpg in mixed driving.....and I drive....um.....aggressively. If he's dealing with stop and go traffic I could see that sort of mpg though---- or if he needs new plugs. ( I noticed a 2mpg difference after changing)

My 97 has 165K or so currently and I wouldn't think twice about driving it to California and back. Heck-- I drove it to Road America last Summer and had a blast!

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1997-bmw-m3/

Joe Gearin wrote: 140K on the original clutch tells me this car hasn't been badly abused. I would plan on replacing it fairly soon though. I wouldn't be concerned with that sort of mileage on the engine, as these engines regularly run well over 200K without issues. Mechanically they are very stout. Just keep an eye on the cooling system. 22mpg seems a bit low though. I get 24-25mpg in mixed driving.....and I drive....um.....aggressively. If he's dealing with stop and go traffic I could see that sort of mpg though---- or if he needs new plugs. ( I noticed a 2mpg difference after changing) My 97 has 165K or so currently and I wouldn't think twice about driving it to California and back. Heck-- I drove it to Road America last Summer and had a blast! http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1997-bmw-m3/

What kind of highway mileage do you see?

^^^ my best is 29mpg, but steady drone at 80mph or so I get 24-25. Funny thing is, driving around town I get around 24mpg as well.

Keep in mind that we don't really have traffic here in Daytona---- except for when there is an event going on. During those times of the year, I'm usually on my motorcycle, or driving the beater pickup.

in retrospect-- 22mpg would seem to be normal if the guy does frequent city driving. I got the 29 driving from Daytona to Jacksonville on A1A without traffic. (45-60mph) I can't see getting much better than than without hypermiling.

Joe Gearin wrote: in retrospect-- 22mpg would seem to be normal if the guy does frequent city driving. I got the 29 driving from Daytona to Jacksonville on A1A without traffic. (45-60mph) I can't see getting much better than than without hypermiling.

I'd agree. The best my ex's ever got was just touching 30 with me driving (I often have a knack for squeezing extra MPG's, don't ask me how...). Mid 20's when she drove it. Teens when she was commuting to work and back <5 miles away.

Update: alright, he has accepted an offer for $5,600. I'll go tomorrow to have the vehicle pre-purchase inspected. I think I'm gonna do it. insurance was only 4 dollars more per 6 month period over the Miata. The car is from Cali and is rust free. Interior sucks, but I am buying this car to daily until I start my career, then I can buy a commuter and turn this into a project car.

Any final words of discouragement before I make the jump?

Desmond wrote: I considered an E30, but I hear parts are becoming scarce.

Where did you hear this? Everything is available for this chassis.

Desmond wrote: Update: alright, he has accepted an offer for $5,600. I'll go tomorrow to have the vehicle pre-purchase inspected. I think I'm gonna do it. insurance was only 4 dollars more per 6 month period over the Miata. The car is from Cali and is rust free. Interior sucks, but I am buying this car to daily until I start my career, then I can buy a commuter and turn this into a project car. Any final words of discouragement before I make the jump?

I have passed on my E36 M3 (mostly) to my son. It has almost 160000 miles on it, and it is still a strong runner. I've refreshed the suspension, and the engine doesn't use or leak oil in any worrisome way. There is a bit of surface rust that needs some attention, and the front bumper cover has seen better days (so had the racoon that got smacked the other day by the car). The interior is showing its age -- the leather is wearing, and the various clips and fasteners are starting to break. E36 interiors are not known for their durability.

There is nothing I would say to dissuade you from the car. They are terrific. Enjoy!

Joe Gearin wrote: ^^^ my best is 29mpg, but steady drone at 80mph or so I get 24-25. Funny thing is, driving around town I get around 24mpg as well. Keep in mind that we don't really have traffic here in Daytona---- except for when there is an event going on. During those times of the year, I'm usually on my motorcycle, or driving the beater pickup. in retrospect-- 22mpg would seem to be normal if the guy does frequent city driving. I got the 29 driving from Daytona to Jacksonville on A1A without traffic. (45-60mph) I can't see getting much better than than without hypermiling.

What about at a steady 70-75, interstate?

mtn wrote:

Joe Gearin wrote: ^^^ my best is 29mpg, but steady drone at 80mph or so I get 24-25. Funny thing is, driving around town I get around 24mpg as well. Keep in mind that we don't really have traffic here in Daytona---- except for when there is an event going on. During those times of the year, I'm usually on my motorcycle, or driving the beater pickup. in retrospect-- 22mpg would seem to be normal if the guy does frequent city driving. I got the 29 driving from Daytona to Jacksonville on A1A without traffic. (45-60mph) I can't see getting much better than than without hypermiling.

What about at a steady 70-75, interstate?

Not sure---- I don't drive that slow

I'd imagine it would get around 25-26 mpg at that speed--maybe a touch more. Keep in mind the gearing on these isn't tall (ala GM 6-speed products) It's one of things I wish BMW would have done for U.S. cars--- added a tall 6th gear. The motor has the torque to deal with it--- and with a 6th gear I bet low 30's mpg would be possible-- with more relaxed cruising. Although as it sits, the car feels it's fastest when you get into it at expressway speeds. It feels much stronger than 240hp would lead you to believe. When you want to pass it happens--- right now!

and congrats to the O.P! I've driven countless cars--- and the E36 M3 is still my all-time favorite.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

Joe Gearin wrote: 140K on the original clutch tells me this car hasn't been badly abused. I would plan on replacing it fairly soon though. I wouldn't be concerned with that sort of mileage on the engine, as these engines regularly run well over 200K without issues. Mechanically they are very stout. Just keep an eye on the cooling system. 22mpg seems a bit low though. I get 24-25mpg in mixed driving.....and I drive....um.....aggressively. If he's dealing with stop and go traffic I could see that sort of mpg though---- or if he needs new plugs. ( I noticed a 2mpg difference after changing) My 97 has 165K or so currently and I wouldn't think twice about driving it to California and back. Heck-- I drove it to Road America last Summer and had a blast! http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1997-bmw-m3/

As another data point, 162K on mine and it's not lived a particularly gentle existence in my hands or the PO's, but I don't abuse it from a standstill. I've had other bimmers with 200K on the original clutch, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Mileage wise, best I've seen is about 25-26 mpg on a long highway drive at around 80 mph. My E36 328is would get an easy 30-32 mpg in the same situation. On the plus side, everything happens right now with the engine on the boil like that. The M52 in the 328 always felt like it punched way above its weight with meaty power delivery that just went on forever, and the S52 does the same thing from a much stronger baseline. I was sort of underwhelmed with the car when I flew out to pick it up, until I hit that first entrance ramp. The way the old girl builds speed and digs in on a long sweeper causes passengers to make all kinds of funny sounds.

Wouldn't call it cheap to maintain, though, at least if you want everything to always work. But no worse than any other BMW, really. $1500-$3000 per year in parts is what I've averaged on all four of mine. That's life.

I'd hate to see my Miata go, but I absolutely love my M3. It's just so stupid good at everything. I'm starting to get to the point where one of 'em needs to go to make way for a larger family vehicle and no way in hell is it going to the the M3 that leaves.

Thanks guys :D

This is pretty reassuring to hear. And as maintenance goes, I am only concerned with functionality, really. Butt warmers fail? Big deal. The cool MPG thingy in the dash stops working? Whatever. So long as the car is mechanically sound, im good :)

since your tall i would go with something practical buy the M3 get rid of that roll cage and keep the miata for track days

This is a high-quality, high-performance German car. Of course it costs more than a Miata to "run." You have to pay to drive a car like this. If it's new, you pay for depreciation. If it's old, you pay for maintenance. Budget for it and enjoy the drive. It's a great classic.