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dj06482
dj06482 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/18/16 11:57 a.m.

My vote is to keep it in 3rd, and get a tune for the motor/transmission. I'd keep the torque management, but firming up the shifts when you're in tow/haul mode can limit slipping. Put it in OD in situations where you don't need the responsiveness (downhills, etc.).

You won't be out a ton of money with that approach, and then you can validate how awful the gas mileage is in third. Unfortunately, the LS-based motors like more RPM than the Vortec and TBI motors that preceded them.

With this approach, you're not loosing anything in your drives without the trailer.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
1/18/16 12:01 p.m.

Lots of hypothetical ideas here. The 2 guys who have had a 6.0L say it ain't gonna happen.

Just saying...

doc_speeder
doc_speeder HalfDork
1/18/16 12:11 p.m.

This comment is somewhat relevant to your interests, but not totally. Also, I speak in Imperial measurements. If you Americans can't figure out the calculations that's not my problem hehe.

I have a 2500/6.0 3.73 It's got about 265,000 km on it. Unloaded HIGHWAY it will touch 20mpg. Towing 9000 lbs (27 ft 5th wheel with a flat deck behind it with dirt bikes) it can get about 11. That's 10.5 in 3rd at 2700 rpm. And 11 in OD at 2100 rpm. I tow in 3rd as it downshifts less and just seems "happier" and drones less. The 1/2 MPG just isn't worth it.

It's not totally stock. About 3 years ago it got a small 210/218 .551/.551 cam, long tubes to big 22" single magnaflow with single tail pipe, and a pretty decent tune courtesy of HPtuners and yours truly.

Towing and empty mileage DID NOT change before and after mods. Towing ease certainly improved, but really only when pulling long mountain grades in 2nd at 4000+ rpm. It's truly happy doing that now. Before the cam and headers it felt like a chore.

I don't know if I got a freak, or if my tune is just that good, but I call BS on the guys that say that 6.0's get the same MPG towing or empty. I've had my truck for almost 7 years and it's towed a bunch every summer. It's just not true in my case.

But I will guarantee you will not improve your towing MPG with a 6.0. Power and enjoyment for sure, but MPG no.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
1/18/16 12:58 p.m.

I'm not concerned with towing MPG. I know it can be worse, but the only way it'll get better is if I find a cheap d-max Allison to stuff in there. For towing, I am looking for more driver comfort. The 10 hour haul to Lincoln wears me out in the truck/trailer as I'm trying to maximize the economy/downshifts on the continuous up-hill slog. Drove it in the car alone and was much less tire, just stiffer from the auto-x suspension and being loaded to the gills.

The unloaded long haul with the wife and pooches mpg is where I'm concerned. With the magnaflow catback (that is now 7 years old) it drones under load in the 1700-1900 range. Which is also where it sits in OD from 70-80.... the same speeds that are common in our half of the country (wife says its too big to take east lol).

Overall, I'm still thinking hte 3.42 plus tune plus some form of LSD are the right choice here. I could also jump tire size to mitigate the gear change if needed. This model is spec'd for the 245/70/17(~30" tire), while the 3.42/3.73 trucks are all equipped with the 265/70/17 (~31" tire). I ran a 265/65 (wider, but same OD) for several years before going back to the 245/70.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
1/18/16 1:04 p.m.
SVreX wrote: Lots of hypothetical ideas here. The 2 guys who have had a 6.0L say it ain't gonna happen. Just saying...

two guys with 6.0's with completely different trucks under them, different transmissions behind them and different rear ends. Sure. In THOSE trucks they are likely correct. But there is more than 1 option from GM for these things.... I'm exploring the ideas of all of them.

Looks like the only truck that would have been close to what I'm looking at would have been the Silverado SS, but it only came with 3.73's in the 10-bolt for hte TWD, and 4.10's for hte AWD. Looks like they were in the 18-19 highway range in real world driving.

Remember, I'm not talking about duplicating what has already been made (6.0 with 3.73-4.10 gears). Nor am I talking about changing the trans to the beefier 4L80. Just using the current 3.23 rear end (whcih was never offered on the 6.0) and a correctly tuned 6.0 as an option.

tedium850
tedium850 Reader
1/18/16 1:06 p.m.

Maybe not the most grassroots solution (because of costs), but have you thought about a gear vendors underdrive unit? Or replace the rear with a 3:73+ and use the overdrive unit? Seems like that would make a 2wd truck rum almsot like a 2-speed rear end truck of old...

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/18/16 1:16 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
Knurled wrote: A 4.8 in a 6000lb truck towing a trailer at sub-2000rpm is going to kick down on the slightest grade *anyway*, may as well shift for yourself instead of having the trans do it under load.
No... just no.

No what? No the trans won't downshift with the slightest grade or no it is fine to lug the engine down and then let the trans bang/slip its way down into 3rd gear under heavy load? Because much personal experience proves out the former and I have far too much mechanical sympathy to allow the latter.

By coincidence, this is also the way the owner tows with it... and the truck has close to 250k on the original trans, which the Internet says isn't possible. Coincidence?

Towing in 3rd gear will get E36 M3 mpg. If you could theoretically keep the truck locked in 4th OD with your foot to the floor, it would get better mpg than spinning away at 2500rpm, end of discussion. Anyways, I'm out

Once you're under a usefully high amount of load, the RPM for cruise isn't going to matter all that much, and there are benefits to running in the meat of the engine's torque curve versus running well below it. I'd rather tow in 3rd gear being relatively gentle than lug the engine at 1800ish in full PE, water pump running slowly...

I can think of other examples where running in a lower gear netted zero difference in economy. Sometimes a benefit. My Subaru picked up 3mpg by ignoring 5th gear under any condition.

rslifkin
rslifkin Reader
1/18/16 1:22 p.m.

There's also the issue of many older 4sp autos not locking the TC in 3rd when they downshift on their own, but they will if you lock out 4th gear (my Jeep does this). That can be the difference between the trans dropping to 3rd and cooking itself on a hill climb and the driver putting it in 3rd and the trans staying cool and happy.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
1/18/16 1:52 p.m.

On mine, in GM's "infinite wisdom" for making auto trans last.... the TC solenoid does not lock and stay locked like the older 700R4's. It unlocks and locks randomly to help keep the pump pushing enough fluid to keep it cool(er). dumb as E36 M3 IMO. changing this out to the TBSS solenoid helps with that tremendously and using hte TBSS valve body gives somepretty nice shifts as well.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/18/16 6:20 p.m.

....Interesting. Do you know if you have to do a software update to use that valvebody?

Another issue with running in OD is, if I'm thinking of the right trans, there ends up being a lot of thrust on a little bushing that isn't really meant to handle much load.

dj06482
dj06482 GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/18/16 7:30 p.m.

At some point, GM made some changes to allow towing in OD. My '94 K1500 had a sticker on the door that said all towing should be done in "D," so that's what I did. I think it in the move to the '99 and up trucks (and the introduction of tow/haul mode) that they said it was OK to tow in OD. OK may not necessarily mean "the best thing for the transmission."

I read a detailed explanation on the old Pacific Audio forum (where all the hardcore GM guys were at the time) about why you didn't want to tow in OD with a 4L60E, and it was very convincing.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
1/19/16 9:22 a.m.
Knurled wrote: ....Interesting. Do you know if you have to do a software update to use that valvebody? Another issue with running in OD is, if I'm thinking of the right trans, there ends up being a lot of thrust on a little bushing that isn't really meant to handle much load.

Didn't with Dad's truck. The first trans was rebuilt at 190k using the TBSS solenoid/valve body. It. Was. Perfect. Then the sun shell disintegrated 2 years later.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
1/19/16 9:38 a.m.
Knurled wrote:
HiTempguy wrote:
Knurled wrote: A 4.8 in a 6000lb truck towing a trailer at sub-2000rpm is going to kick down on the slightest grade *anyway*, may as well shift for yourself instead of having the trans do it under load.
No... just no.
No what? No the trans won't downshift with the slightest grade or no it is fine to lug the engine down and then let the trans bang/slip its way down into 3rd gear under heavy load? Because much personal experience proves out the former and I have far too much mechanical sympathy to allow the latter. By coincidence, this is also the way the owner tows with it... and the truck has close to 250k on the original trans, which the Internet says isn't possible. Coincidence?
Towing in 3rd gear will get E36 M3 mpg. If you could theoretically keep the truck locked in 4th OD with your foot to the floor, it would get better mpg than spinning away at 2500rpm, end of discussion. Anyways, I'm out
Once you're under a usefully high amount of load, the RPM for cruise isn't going to matter all that much, and there are benefits to running in the meat of the engine's torque curve versus running well below it. I'd rather tow in 3rd gear being relatively gentle than lug the engine at 1800ish in full PE, water pump running slowly... I can think of other examples where running in a lower gear netted zero difference in economy. Sometimes a benefit. My Subaru picked up 3mpg by ignoring 5th gear under any condition.

get back in here ... is there any way to do this ? my 4.6 F150 jumps back and forth between 3rd and OD/torque converter lock up at the hint of an upgrade ... I would LOVE to be able to just mash on the throttle and drive up the hill ... and when appropriate, unlock and actually down shift when I come up the mountain into my home valley

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/19/16 9:58 a.m.

What are you towing???

Back when I was still playing with cars, I towed my car all over the place- 2500lb car + 700lb open trailer. No matter what I pulled it with, I got 15mpg. 3.0l or 4.0l Ranger, 5.4l F150, and a 3.5l Edge. Actually, the Edge pushed things to 18mpg, but that was only local driving- the others I drove all over the place- including Florida more than once.

Maybe get a smaller package to pull.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
1/19/16 10:03 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

very little ...it's just that the F150 4x4 4.6 is pretty gutless

towing a CRX on a tow dolly, with the bed full of stuff for the track .. tires, jack, tools, small compressor ... etc ...

as a DD I get ~ 14 mpg, while towing I get ~ 11 - 12mpg .. not worried about improving the milage. as I am getting the transmission to stay in the higher gear(s) as I go up the little hills (not the mountain) that I have to negotiate around here ... which is why I was asking how to make it stay locked in TQ lock up, and or in OD ...

now just the slightest hint of an up grade and out of TQ it comes .. if the upgrade is the least bit "steep" or long then out of OD it comes ... there's PLENTY of pedal left if it would just let me us it

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltimaDork
1/19/16 11:08 a.m.

aLSO... drove the truck to work this morning and played with it a little once it got warm. 3rd gear locks the TC out of Tow/Haul. in T/H it does not. That seems ass-backwards to me.

Also, the 4.8 with 3" magnaflow sounds GLORIOUS at 2000-2500rpm under moderate load and cackles on decel. I still want this motor in somethign half the weight.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/19/16 11:24 a.m.
wbjones wrote: In reply to alfadriver: very little ...it's just that the F150 4x4 4.6 is pretty gutless towing a CRX on a tow dolly, with the bed full of stuff for the track .. tires, jack, tools, small compressor ... etc ... as a DD I get ~ 14 mpg, while towing I get ~ 11 - 12mpg .. not worried about improving the milage. as I am getting the transmission to stay in the higher gear(s) as I go up the little hills (not the mountain) that I have to negotiate around here ... which is why I was asking how to make it stay locked in TQ lock up, and or in OD ... now just the slightest hint of an up grade and out of TQ it comes .. if the upgrade is the least bit "steep" or long then out of OD it comes ... there's PLENTY of pedal left if it would just let me us it

Maybe drop the dolly and get a real trailer.... I used to carry that all day long and get 15mpg. Heck, we carried our full autocross stuff (including cones) to Florida and back and got 15mpg with a 4.0l Ranger.

And by real trailer, I mean a real, but small, trailer. Your CRX is no heavier than my GTV (or even lighter), so you should be as good as I've been.

It's hard to relate to all of the towing issues being posted here.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
1/19/16 11:57 a.m.
wbjones wrote: get back in here ... is there any way to do this ? my 4.6 F150 jumps back and forth between 3rd and OD/torque converter lock up at the hint of an upgrade ... I would LOVE to be able to just mash on the throttle and drive up the hill ... and when appropriate, unlock and actually down shift when I come up the mountain into my home valley

Since I've been summoned... If the lockup torque converter is electronically controlled, you can actually change the activation to a switch on your dash with minimal wiring (at least on GM's). Then your torque converter locks on when you tell it to. I'm sure if you put a 3-position toggle in place, you could probably have "normal operation" "locked" and "unlocked" positions if you wired it up properly.

By keeping the torque converter locked, I bet the computer wouldn't be so quick to do the ol' (4th OD locked, oh E36 M3, a bit of a grade, unlock torque converter, oh no!, we need more power, better downshift to 3rd unlocked and spin er to the moon!) sequence of events (which is also super hard on the transmission).

Knurled wrote: Once you're under a usefully high amount of load, the RPM for cruise isn't going to matter all that much, and there are benefits to running in the meat of the engine's torque curve versus running well below it. I'd rather tow in 3rd gear being relatively gentle than lug the engine at 1800ish in full PE, water pump running slowly... I can think of other examples where running in a lower gear netted zero difference in economy. Sometimes a benefit. My Subaru picked up 3mpg by ignoring 5th gear under any condition.

You are wrong. RPM kills mpg, end of discussion. There is so much fuel required to be burnt with a given volume of air. Lower rpm will almost always return better mpg, including under heavy load unless the manufacturer has DESIGNED IT NOT TO (which could be for warranty/heat concerns, I agree with you in that regard). It's pretty simple marth. The higher the rpm, the more volume of fuel/air you put through the motor. I can guarantee you at WOT at 1800rpm is less fuel than 2500rpm at part throttle in almost any situation, again, unless the manufacturer has specifically gone out of their way to do so (warranty and/or poor design).

Also, being "gentle" on a motor is silly. These are mechanical parts, not humans. They only care about operating within their design specifications, anything else you attribute to being "gentle" is all in your head. I've put on over 250k kms towing in my short life, I've never seen these "heat management" problems people seem to imagine.

Bobzilla wrote: I'm not concerned with towing MPG. I know it can be worse, but the only way it'll get better is if I find a cheap d-max Allison to stuff in there. For towing, I am looking for more driver comfort.

It's all the same crap at the end of the day. Maximize efficiency/power at the rpm you wish to cruise at. Unfortunately, besides the tune and maybe exhaust (and the exhaust isn't worth it), you will see lower mpg cruising no matter what you do if you want better towing power. Like I said, tune, electric fans, underdrive pulleys (negligible), and the teeniest primary tube headers you can find (or get them custom made, still will be negligible).

The 6.0L swap is completely worthless. But please do it though, it will entertain me

rslifkin
rslifkin Reader
1/19/16 12:24 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote: You are wrong. RPM kills mpg, end of discussion. There is so much fuel required to be burnt with a given volume of air. Lower rpm will almost always return better mpg, including under heavy load unless the manufacturer has DESIGNED IT NOT TO (which could be for warranty/heat concerns, I agree with you in that regard). It's pretty simple marth. The higher the rpm, the more volume of fuel/air you put through the motor. I can guarantee you at WOT at 1800rpm is less fuel than 2500rpm at part throttle in almost any situation, again, unless the manufacturer has specifically gone out of their way to do so (warranty and/or poor design). Also, being "gentle" on a motor is silly. These are mechanical parts, not humans. They only care about operating within their design specifications, anything else you attribute to being "gentle" is all in your head. I've put on over 250k kms towing in my short life, I've never seen these "heat management" problems people seem to imagine.

In theory, you're right. If the motor ran at the same AFR all the time, then less RPM / more throttle would equal better MPG for the same power output.

But in reality, pumping losses aren't the only thing that have an effect here. Best BSFC is found at a fairly lean AFR (lean of stoich). But we can't run a motor that lean under full load, as it'll never keep the combustion chambers cool enough, etc. and we'll detonate it into oblivion (or pull a ton of timing, etc. to make it live and massively compromise power output in the process, at which point we'd have to drop a gear just to have enough power).

Because of this issue, BSFC improves at higher engine loadings, but only up to a point. That's usually in the ballpark of 80% load for most N/A engines. Beyond this, the AFRs have to be richened up significantly to keep the engine alive and allow decent power production. When this happens, BSFC starts to take a nose-dive, as you're moving from the slightly richer than peak efficiency burn you've got at cruise (where it's probably running around 14.7:1 AFR) to a much richer than peak efficiency, but better for power production and cylinder cooling, burn in the 12.5 - 13:1 AFR range.

Because of that, there's a crossover point somewhat short of 100% load where dropping a gear and going from, say, 100% load to 60% load ends up leaving you in a similar or slightly better spot on the BSFC curve and with more reserve power available without needing a downshift.

I've done some testing of this in my Jeep. Climbing a specific hill near home at 40 mph, I have the choice of being in 4th gear or 3rd gear to climb the hill at a steady speed. 4th puts me at ~1200 RPM and has the MAP sensor indicating that I'm right around 95% load (manifold pressure is 95% of outside atmospheric pressure). Doing this, it's running 12.8 - 13:1 AFR the whole way up the hill. 3rd brings it up to just over 1700 rpm, but now the load is lighter (can't remember the percentage off-hand) and it stays in closed loop, which I have set up for a bit of a lean burn. So it's now climbing the hill running 15.5 - 15.6:1 AFR, which both according to the on-board MPG display and a data log of RPM vs injector pulsewidth, has it burning fuel at almost exactly the same rate in either gear.

As you get higher up in the rpm range, pumping losses become a more significant concern, so you will eventually hit a point where dropping a gear will always burn more fuel (such as going 80 mph, where going from 4th to 3rd would be going from ~2400 rpm to almost 3500 rpm). But at the lower end of the rpm range, it's not uncommon for other factors to lead to very similar fuel consumption in a lower gear despite the increased pumping losses.

The heat issue is mostly this: if you're climbing a mountain on a hot day with the A/C cranked, heavily loaded and the vehicle has a mechanically driven cooling fan, you'll have much more cooling airflow to work with if needed when the engine is at higher rpm. For electric-fan vehicles, it's less of an issue, provided the water pump flows enough at lower rpm.

We'll put it this way: if lower rpm always meant better MPG, you better believe every car manufacturer out there would gear their cars to turn 1000 rpm at 70 mph so they'd do great on highway mpg tests and just downshift whenever you asked for any acceleration or hit a hill. But they don't, because past a point, the gains are so small that the loss of responsiveness isn't worth it.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/19/16 12:35 p.m.

All- one must bear in mind, very few trucks are designed around towing, and the cost of the user to do that. Especially in the sub 10k trailer weight range (where nobody brags about tow ratings).

For a V8 to be rated at 6000lb, probably nothing went into checking how it actually gets used in the real world- just enough to make sure the truck would not hurt itself. Other than that, well....

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
1/19/16 12:43 p.m.
rslifkin wrote: In theory, you're right.

No, in theory, you are right. In reality, you are wrong. I really do appreciate the response, and the very accurate technical information you have provided, but it simply makes no difference. I've said before, there are some cases where higher rpm may return better mpg, but they are few and far between.

I feel like I am arguing with engineers right now... "This works in the lab!" "Yep, but this isn't the lab, this is reality". You can do all the math you want, at the end of the day, results speak for themselves.

rslifkin
rslifkin Reader
1/19/16 12:49 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
rslifkin wrote: In theory, you're right.
No, in theory, you are right. In reality, you are wrong. I really do appreciate the response, and the very accurate technical information you have provided, but it simply makes no difference. I've said before, there are some cases where higher rpm may return better mpg, but they are few and far between. I feel like I am arguing with engineers right now... "This works in the lab!" "Yep, but this isn't the lab, this is reality". You can do all the math you want, at the end of the day, results speak for themselves.

I case you didn't notice, I've actually tested it in the real world. And I've found that at lower rpm, the increased pumping losses from going down a gear don't actually lead to worse mpg when at 90+ percent load in the higher gear.

I'd like to see you do some testing and actually prove that dropping a gear will lead to a noticeable increase in fuel consumption when you're still decently loaded in the lower gear and not overly high in the rpm range.

FWIW, at the same 40 mph in the same Jeep, it does show a significant (over 10%) increase in fuel consumption going from 4th gear to 3rd gear on flat ground where it's already under fairly light load in 4th and therefore extremely light load in 3rd (so it's running the same AFR in both gears and has more pumping losses in 3rd, so 4th has a significant BSFC advantage).

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/19/16 12:56 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote: You are wrong. RPM kills mpg, end of discussion. There is so much fuel required to be burnt with a given volume of air.

There are far too many variables at play to be able to make a blanket statement like that.

The volume of air going in is independent of RPM, that is what the throttle plate is for. There are issues with pumping losses in one direction and engine efficiency, but see above "many variables at play".

I have had experience with several vehicles that either did not change or improved fuel economy by not lugging them. My Subaru, for instance, was far happier turning 4k down the highway than 2800 where it barely made enough power to cruise, and fuel economy went up from 24 to 27mpg. I had an RX-7 that did 32mpg while turning 5k down the highway, and for the original RX-7s with non overdrive transmissions, the EPA economy rating was identical to the ones equipped with overdrive, even though they spun 4k down the road instead of 2900.

Also ask the guys with Scion xBs who put in transmissions with taller overdrive and see an economy loss despite less RPM.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
1/19/16 2:07 p.m.
HiTempguy wrote:
rslifkin wrote: In theory, you're right.
No, in theory, you are right. In reality, you are wrong. I really do appreciate the response, and the very accurate technical information you have provided, but it simply makes no difference. I've said before, there are some cases where higher rpm may return better mpg, but they are few and far between. I feel like I am arguing with engineers right now... "This works in the lab!" "Yep, but this isn't the lab, this is reality". You can do all the math you want, at the end of the day, results speak for themselves.

You do realize that engines run less than 12:1 at WOT even below 2000rpm, don't you? Not all, but many.

Worse than that, most also have to retard spark, as knock becomes a big problem.

It's pretty easy to find examples were making the same power at 2200rpm is more efficent than at 1500 rpm. Happens a lot.

wbjones
wbjones MegaDork
1/19/16 2:51 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
wbjones wrote: In reply to alfadriver: very little ...it's just that the F150 4x4 4.6 is pretty gutless towing a CRX on a tow dolly, with the bed full of stuff for the track .. tires, jack, tools, small compressor ... etc ... as a DD I get ~ 14 mpg, while towing I get ~ 11 - 12mpg .. not worried about improving the milage. as I am getting the transmission to stay in the higher gear(s) as I go up the little hills (not the mountain) that I have to negotiate around here ... which is why I was asking how to make it stay locked in TQ lock up, and or in OD ... now just the slightest hint of an up grade and out of TQ it comes .. if the upgrade is the least bit "steep" or long then out of OD it comes ... there's PLENTY of pedal left if it would just let me us it
Maybe drop the dolly and get a real trailer.... I used to carry that all day long and get 15mpg. Heck, we carried our full autocross stuff (including cones) to Florida and back and got 15mpg with a 4.0l Ranger. And by real trailer, I mean a real, but small, trailer. Your CRX is no heavier than my GTV (or even lighter), so you should be as good as I've been. It's hard to relate to all of the towing issues being posted here.

would have to leave the trailer at some rented site ... impossible to get it into my driveway (too steep,and zero way to turn it around in my parking area, plus not having any place to keep it)

I can move the dolly around and fit it into tiny spaces ... trailer no fit ... I WOULD love to have a small trailer

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