Trying to figure out rack and pinion for a sand rail

I'm in the middle of a sand rail for the street build and trying to figure out steering. The rail pretty much a VW beetle ball joint front end and IRs rear end with a bunch of tubing holding it all together. Originally the steering was the stock VW steering box but since this will be a street only rail and I'll be pushing it a bit I'd like to go with a rack and pinion. I'm looking at either a center load r&p (tie rods connect to the center of the rack instead of the ends) or a regular car r&p setup. The problem with a normal car setup is the tie rods bolt to the end of the rack so I end up with short tie rods. Because the suspension and tie rods are rotating on different axis I end up with bump steer issues. The easiest way to avoid bumpsteer is longer tie rods. The only rack I've found that is set up like that is a mid 80's Pontiac J Body rack. The tie rods for that rack mount to the front of the rack though. I'm not sure if the center of the rack can be rotated in relation to the input pinion so the tie rods bolt to the back side or if anyone knows of another vehicle that had that type of rack. 

Look at Porsche 911.  I conveniently have a rack from a 69 911 in the garage.  Also check circle track suppliers and look at Sweet brand racks.  They're compact and take off the shelf easy to get tie rods.  I have one of those too, and may be able to lay them together and post a picture so you get an idea, but the next few days are very busy.  Even more Conveniently I also have a sandrail

Honda Element, still mounts to the front of the rack, but just about anything originally mounted to a firewall will have that issue.

The Honda Element rack looks like the tie rods are mostly on the bottom and the tie rod base looks bolted on, so machining for another location may be simple.

Matthew

A friend of mine used a Scirocco rack.

I am out of touch with most things aircooled VW but, am I wrong in thinking this is what the short Empi racks exist for?

seems like an affordable easy button.

EfiniMotorsport said:

I'm in the middle of a sand rail for the street build and trying to figure out steering. The rail pretty much a VW beetle ball joint front end and IRs rear end with a bunch of tubing holding it all together. Originally the steering was the stock VW steering box but since this will be a street only rail and I'll be pushing it a bit I'd like to go with a rack and pinion. I'm looking at either a center load r&p (tie rods connect to the center of the rack instead of the ends) or a regular car r&p setup. The problem with a normal car setup is the tie rods bolt to the end of the rack so I end up with short tie rods. Because the suspension and tie rods are rotating on different axis I end up with bump steer issues. The easiest way to avoid bumpsteer is longer tie rods. The only rack I've found that is set up like that is a mid 80's Pontiac J Body rack. The tie rods for that rack mount to the front of the rack though. I'm not sure if the center of the rack can be rotated in relation to the input pinion so the tie rods bolt to the back side or if anyone knows of another vehicle that had that type of rack. 

Audis had this style of rack right up until the quad-arm era.  The "small chassis" cars (Fox/Dasher/Quantum/Coupe GT/quattro/4000/80/90/Coupe Quattro) had a rack that was only half the vehicle's width.  Note these are front-steer racks, not rear-steer like most center takeoff racks.

There is a bracket that attaches to the end of the rack that the tie rods actually attach to.  Most of these were power, but manual racks can be found in Foxes.

Other places to look are Chrysler LH cars, Pontiac LeMans (Opel Kadett) and the Daewoo Lanos (all basically German J-bodies or Korean reproductions thereof), and Honda Civic and CR-V based on "flat floor" architecture.  Probably a bunch more.

I looked over all your suggestions and the one knurled showed may work the best. The problem with most of them is the tie rods mount to the ends of the rack instead of the center. It makes my tie rods much shorter. Because my front suspension and front steering will be pivoting on different planes it can cause bumpsteer. The easiest way to eliminate it is to use long tie rods that minimize the angle changes of the tie rods as the suspension cycles. I have one of those Empi style racks that I was going to use before I understood the negative effects it can cause. They can also be twitchy because they respond so quickly to any input. I did find another style that may work well at Speedway. I've got to find out what the ratio is though. I'm going to look more into the fox body rack too but I think the sprint car style may be easier to mount. I had hope to find some vehicle that mounted the tie rods in the center (equal length) and had the steering shaft input to the driver side, both on the same side of the rack. Doesn't seem one exists and I don't know if it's possible to "flip" one part of the rack to get them on the same side.

I am not at all familiar with VW geometry, or how narrow your rack needs to be, but I went thru a similar search while fitting a r&p to a Toyota pickup front frame clip.

I ended up de-powering a Miata r&p and narrowing it ~5.5 inches. There are several different inner tie-rod lengths available also.

The miata rack won't work as the tie rods mount to the end of the rack instead of in the center. And end mount rack will shorten my tie rods by many inches and make dumpster worse

The ones made specifically for sandrails are just what you need and they work perfectly.   Here's the one I put in my skid pad challenge rail a few years ago.

As someone else noted early 911 racks are a great fit too, we used one of those on the wartburg when the one shown below turned out to be too wide.

Tried to find a photo but can't seem to at the moment.  With the 911 rack in the wartburg I actually built a carrier that bolted to each of the rack ends and had mounting points for heim joints in the center to permit even longer arms.  Takes a bit of effort to get it right as it wants to rotate on the rack if you dont put limiters in but it worked well.

Edit:  Found it.   I only had to move them in a few inches to get the geometry I needed but the principle would apply if you wanted to move them in further, just need to make sure the "anti flip" bit wont foul the heim joints in your design.

My 1999 Saab 9-3 had a center mount steering rack with really long tie rods 

JTHw8, I was thinking of doing exactly that but was worried about the carrier rotating. Not sure if bolting and welding it would work. I'm leaning towards the center mount rack to increase the tie rod length. How much set back was there from the rack to the outer tie rod ends in that first pic? I'm close to 9" right now. I blasted and painted all the front end parts so I can press the ball joints in and mock everything up. 

EfiniMotorsport said:

JTHw8, I was thinking of doing exactly that but was worried about the carrier rotating. Not sure if bolting and welding it would work. I'm leaning towards the center mount rack to increase the tie rod length. How much set back was there from the rack to the outer tie rod ends in that first pic? I'm close to 9" right now. I blasted and painted all the front end parts so I can press the ball joints in and mock everything up. 

Its been a few years but if I recall I think the tie rods were made at 14"    If by set back you are asking how far from a straight line between the rack and the spindle I honestly dont remember.   Not sure if I have any better photos but I'll dig around.

Rotation on the 2nd setup is definitely an issue.  My first thought was to drill and pin the carrier to the outer ends but thats some hardened steel and it was having none of it.  In the end the simple solution was that bit of channel in the center, it is basically just a limiter which prevents the carrier from moving up or down.

Not the best pics but all I could find

That looks like you'd have a similar amount of setback to what I have. No bumpsteer issues? What was the wheel base on that rail? It looks either really short or that you sat pretty far forward in the frame.

No issues, handled pretty well and stuck great on the skidpad :)

It was fairly short.

Guessing those tires helped

  A rack from a Borgward Hansa 1100 would be perfect.   Really long tie rods.

I know, what are the odds ?

iceracer said:

  A rack from a Borgward Hansa 1100 would be perfect.   Really long tie rods.

I know, what are the odds ?

I tried to buy a Borgward Isabella a couple years ago, because i had never heard of one

I've never heard of one either. Couldn't even find a pic of the rack so doubt I could find one for sale.

yeah, Borgward was forced out of business in the early '60's.

 So----.

yeah, Borgward was forced out of business in the early '60's.

 So----.

I think I'm going to have to go with the stock steering box with equal length tie rods. It solved a few other fitment issues I was having and I already have it.