Turbo vs. Supercharger

Which do you guys prefer, and why?

Subject motor is a 2.2 litre 4-banger.

Reason why i ask is because i just came across a rare RippMods 5sfe supercharger, and yeah... the price is high, but i already have everything else needed to install it from past projects.

Downside: I probably wouldn't make more than 220whp with it, but the powerband would probably be huge, and in a ~2300lb car, do i really need more than that? And a 3rd gen 3sgte runs me about the same money, and will make closer to 250whp out the box, 320whp with bolt ons. Servicing this supercharger would probably be an exercise in futility. BUT, it's only got 2200miles on it so it should be fine for quite some time.

Upside: Awesome noises! Low end grunt. It's different, and it's rare.

Why do these things never turn up when i'm actually looking for them?

Opinions?

Tell me what to choose if you wish.... i'm more looking for opinions on turbo vs. supercharger on smaller motors.

Your "different and rare" points are in the wrong category ;)

Seriously though, It sounds like your downsided talked me into the engine swap. And, I have no familiarity with any of the parts, engines, or car your talking about.

Clem

What type of supercharger is that (Roots, etc)? I guess it depends on what you want from the engine. I mean obviously the supercharger in general is going to provide more low end grunt. I think more importantly you need to chose a supercharger or turbo that fits i.e. the turbo from a Dodge Ram turbo diesel isn't going to work to well on a Geo Metro. That is an extreme case but you get the idea.

Go the supercharger route. Its different. Maybe find a clutch off of a superchared mr2's unit and have it as supercharger on demand. I drove my old mk1 mr2 with the supercharger one week without that little supercharged light coming on and got 30mpg, it was the most boring week of commuting I've ever done... Screw it put a supercharger and a turbo on it. Twincharger. The supercharger for the low end then switch over to the turbo at higher revs.

Both?

Run a M45 charger and a KKK K03 both into a single intercooler and a good recirculating blow off valve and watch the kiddies run in fear!

That is another idea. You could always spray the intercooler with nitrous. haha

96DXCivic wrote: What type of supercharger is that (Roots, etc)? I guess it depends on what you want from the engine. I mean obviously the supercharger in general is going to provide more low end grunt. I think more importantly you need to chose a supercharger or turbo that fits i.e. the turbo from a Dodge Ram turbo diesel isn't going to work to well on a Geo Metro. That is an extreme case but you get the idea.

It's a centrifugal supercharger. It was made specifically for the motor in my car currently, which has unknown miles on it. It's either that and 220whp or so, or a 3rd gen 3sgte swap with another 100whp with bolt ons, lower mileage engine, and a factory turbo.

This is all starting to sound rather one sided, isn't it?

Yup. superchargers can certainly be great depending on what you want but it sounds like turbo is a much better option for you.

RossD wrote: Go the supercharger route. Its different. Maybe find a clutch off of a superchared mr2's unit and have it as supercharger on demand. I drove my old mk1 mr2 with the supercharger one week without that little supercharged light coming on and got 30mpg, it was the most boring week of commuting I've ever done... Screw it put a supercharger and a turbo on it. Twincharger. The supercharger for the low end then switch over to the turbo at higher revs.

I wouldn't need the supercharger on demand, and i'm not sure if the clutch would swap over. You had a 4agze, i have a 5sfe. It's not exactly a commuting car. :D

The twincharge was interesting for a short moment to me, until i realized that there's just simply not enough space. A turbo toyota S-series engine is CRAMMED into a 5th gen Celica engine bay, let alone a supercharger on top of that. 3rd gen 3sgte starts making power around 3k anyways.

I'm still researching this supercharger. Apparently rippmods said that their test car made 187whp on 5.5psi w/ a 2.25" exhaust, and a real basic setup. I wonder how much tweaking could be done.

Didn't you say in another thread your car only has 80HP now? How the heck is an ancient centrifugal going to nearly triple that???

If you really want to learn about engine building and boost pick up subscriptions to Car Craft, Hot Rod, Popular Hot Rodding, and buy a copy of Corky Bell's book, "Maximum Boost".

P71 wrote: Didn't you say in another thread your car only has 80HP now? How the heck is an ancient centrifugal going to nearly triple that??? If you really want to learn about engine building and boost pick up subscriptions to Car Craft, Hot Rod, Popular Hot Rodding, and buy a copy of Corky Bell's book, "Maximum Boost".

The 80whp thing is a joke. It's a 135 crank hp motor. I tend to joke about the 5sfe a lot because it's largely considered to be a dog of a motor. Which is kinda/kinda not true.

It just feels slow to me vs. my last celica which i've determined was a freak of a motor. The current motor feels on par to all other Celicas and camrys i've driven. They typically put out 115-125whp. I'm probably on the high end of that spectrum.

Rippmods had dyno charts up and details on their setup in the Camry showing the 187whp at 5.5psi. It's legit, i trust it. I just know the 5sfe can handle more boost than that, and with a better intake and exhaust system, i don't doubt i'd see over 200whp.

Superchargers are a rather unknown entity to me though, i'll admit. I'm used to building turbo hondas.

The swap definitely seems like a better idea to me at this point anyways now that i think past the initial modification and to how each will hold up over time and beatings.

93celicaGT2 wrote: It's a centrifugal supercharger.

Then the power band will be similar to a turbo rather than all on the bottom end like a Rootes type.

Centrifugals feel like good naturally aspirated motors to me. They don't make much difference to torque, as boost is directly related to engine speed - ie, 5.5 psi at 8000 rpm is 2.75 psi at 4000. Really, a centrifugal is just a turbo driven by a belt and fixed to the engine speed. The nice thing about them is that they're fairly detonation proof, as they make maximum boost way beyond the torque peak and they don't have any backpressure. More efficient at moving air than a positive displacement blower too, so less temperature rise. I think they're best suited to engines with lots of low end that need some top end to match.

Turbo vs super? The thing moving the air isn't as important as the implementation. You can do a turbo with instant response and lots of low end, and you can do a super with a poor bottom end that makes all of its power right at the top.

So you're shopping for power adders on an engine you don't like for a stock Celica? I'm confused. Your car under your profile is a dark green stock Celica with basically tires, right? You've been talking about this 3GTFMEIdon'tknowwhat3 engine forever that nobody knows about. What the heck is it and where does it come from and why do you want it?

Simple questions.

What is your car (year, make, model)?

What engine does it have (cylinders, displacement, layout)?

What mods are installed on it right now?

What are you planning on doing with it?

What's your budget?

From what I can gather of actual information you have a stock 93 Celica. 135HP at the crank is more like 100-105HP at the wheels.

P71 wrote: So you're shopping for power adders on an engine you don't like for a stock Celica? I'm confused. Your car under your profile is a dark green stock Celica with basically tires, right? You've been talking about this 3GTFMEIdon'tknowwhat3 engine for*ever* that nobody knows about. What the heck is it and where does it come from and why do you want it? Simple questions. What is your car (year, make, model)? What engine does it have (cylinders, displacement, layout)? What mods are installed on it right now? What are you planning on doing with it? What's your budget? From what I can gather of actual information you have a stock 93 Celica. 135HP at the crank is more like 100-105HP at the wheels.

I like the 5sfe. I think i'm one of the few that do. But between rebuilding it and boosting it, i may as well just buy a 3sgte and dump that in. It bolts up, just need wiring.

My car is a black 1992 Celica hatch with KSport coilovers, Suspension Techniques front and rear sway bars, custom strut mount braces front and rear, 2000 Celica GTS wheels w/ RS2s, brakes, stripped, p/s and a/c removed, Momo Corsa seats, and some JDM stuff that does WONDERS for performance, etc...

So....

1992 Celica GT

5sfe engine. I-4 2.2 litre.

Engine has only intake and a timing advance on it right now. Was never a priority for me.

Planning to do with it? Dunno. Everything. It'll never be competitive at really anything, i'm just looking to try my hand at anything i can possibly enter except maybe rallycross. I have the Escort for competing if i ever get good enough to actually be a threat in HS.

Budget.... i try not to think about that, because i'm sure i'd get mad. Let's just say that i've already got way over Challenge money in it as it sits currently. Plus Challenge money again in transmission, crossmember, fuel pump, LSD, and axles for a 3sgte swap. Call it $10k if you want a number.

3sgte. I-4 2.0 litre 16v turbo motor. Came in 88-89 AllTrac/GT4 Celica. (195hp) 90-93 AllTrac/GT4 (200-225hp) 94-99 GT4 (255hp) ST215 Caldina GT4 (265hp) Mr2 Turbo. Toyota's SR20DET, 4g63T, 13B, etc....

This thread took a weird turn.... was supposed to be more supercharger vs. turbocharger. They aren't real comparable when talking about my specific choices, was mainly just trying to guage if i'd enjoy the centrifugal on my 5sfe or not.

A healthy 5sfe does dyno 115-120whp. Either they were underrated from factory, or there isn't much drivetrain loss. Keep in mind it's FWD which as a stereotype doesn't suffer quite a much.

It makes sense for me to just go ahead and do the 3sgte swap as i've been planning and accumulating parts for it for some time now. So that's what i'm doing. I was just more curious as to pros/cons/opinions on the subject more than anything, because as i said, i know next to nothing about superchargers other than that they make a cool sound and create boost.

P71 wrote: You've been talking about this 3GTFMEIdon'tknowwhat3 engine for*ever* that nobody knows about. What the heck is it and where does it come from and why do you want it?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but...3S-GTE. It is a Toyota 2-liter 16-valve turbocharged engine which came in the Celica All-Trac Turbo and MR2 Turbo.

They are usually fairly highly regarded when talking boosted four cylinders.

As for why someone would want one, the power potential is nearly unlimited as long as you have the budget to match. Mods on more of a realistic budget can produce a sizeable bump in power with good reliability.

And FWIW, my vote is don't touch the 5S-FE, go 3S-GTE if you want more power. Unless being unique is your top priority and main goal with the car, I would forget the supercharger now and focus on the more proven route.

Keith wrote: Turbo vs super? The thing moving the air isn't as important as the implementation. You can do a turbo with instant response and lots of low end, and you can do a super with a poor bottom end that makes all of its power right at the top.

A-berkeleyin-men.

1.6L Turbo Civic.

ae86andkp61 wrote:

P71 wrote: You've been talking about this 3GTFMEIdon'tknowwhat3 engine for*ever* that nobody knows about. What the heck is it and where does it come from and why do you want it?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but...3S-GTE. It is a Toyota 2-liter 16-valve turbocharged engine which came in the Celica All-Trac Turbo and MR2 Turbo. They are usually fairly highly regarded when talking boosted four cylinders. As for why someone would want one, the power potential is nearly unlimited as long as you have the budget to match. Mods on more of a realistic budget can produce a sizeable bump in power with good reliability. And FWIW, my vote is don't touch the 5S-FE, go 3S-GTE if you want more power. Unless being unique is your top priority and main goal with the car, I would forget the supercharger now and focus on the more proven route.

Yep.

A Gen3 with intake, fmic, and ebc ONLY on race gas will turn the dyno at 320+whp. One would be able to keep it simple and have good reliability knocking on the door to 400whp. And then there's the guys on alltrac.net (TJDouble07 in particular) pushing over 700awhp on pump E85. Not something i'm interested in, but you get the idea.

Here we go.... stock gen3 3sgte. 335whp. Intake exhaust and boost controller.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61523&pid=753466&mode=threaded&start=100#entry753466

I am going Supercharged in my spider. Using an M62 bolted to the 2.0

Having been driving my saab, I can honestly say that I do not like the non-linier powerband of a turbocharged car.

mad_machine wrote: I am going Supercharged in my spider. Using an M62 bolted to the 2.0 Having been driving my saab, I can honestly say that I do not like the non-linier powerband of a turbocharged car.

Older saabs are quite annoying at times like that.... i had an older 9000 Aero 2.3T and that thing was about as refined as a mack truck when it spooled. Amusing when you were beating on it.... not so much when trying to merge onto a fast moving highway and don't feel like torque-steering into a semi.

So why not call it a Turbo MR2 motor? We understand that. There's very few engines famous enough to be called by their moniker outside their own fans and still be recognized. Everybody here knows what an LS1 is or a 13B. Other stuff not so much. SOHC 2V PI Romeo doesn't mean squat to you, but Mustang GT engine does.

So it's a suspension-shod Celica? Stock motor sucks? You already blew a ton of money on stuf for a Turbo MR2 motor swap? I think the choice is clear. Buy the Turbo MR2 motor and get it over with.

P71 wrote: So why not call it a Turbo MR2 motor? We understand that. There's very few engines famous enough to be called by their moniker outside their own fans and still be recognized. Everybody here knows what an LS1 is or a 13B. Other stuff not so much. SOHC 2V PI Romeo doesn't mean squat to you, but Mustang GT engine does. So it's a suspension-shod Celica? Stock motor sucks? You already blew a ton of money on stuf for a Turbo MR2 motor swap? I think the choice is clear. Buy the Turbo MR2 motor and get it over with.

Thread has taken a backroad, batman.

There are some differences between the MR2 motor and what i'm using.... that's why i didn't use that description.

Point taken.

My mistake...I expected most folks on here to know LS1, LS6, 12A, 13B, 4A-GE, 3S-GTE, 2JZ-GTE, 4G63, D16, B18B, K20A, SR20DET...

Now that I look at it, it is a bit of an alphabet soup!

I think the problem arises when a similar powerplant comes in different chassis...is it a Corvette motor, Cadillac motor, or SSR motor? Is it an MR2 motor, or Celica GT4 motor? Is it a Colt Vista wagon motor or a Mitsubishi Evo motor? Sometimes it matters (different state of tune or different variant) and other times it doesn't matter and is two ways of saying the same thing. I guess it is hard to have one standard by which everyone is happy, so sorry for any confusion.

ae86andkp61 wrote: My mistake...I expected most folks on here to know LS1, LS6, 12A, 13B, 4A-GE, 3S-GTE, 2JZ-GTE, 4G63, D16, B18B, K20A, SR20DET... Now that I look at it, it is a bit of an alphabet soup! I think the problem arises when a similar powerplant comes in different chassis...is it a Corvette motor, Cadillac motor, or SSR motor? Is it an MR2 motor, or Celica GT4 motor? Is it a Colt Vista wagon motor or a Mitsubishi Evo motor? Sometimes it matters (different state of tune or different variant) and other times it doesn't matter and is two ways of saying the same thing. I guess it is hard to have one standard by which everyone is happy, so sorry for any confusion.

I do a lot of reading.... so i tend to know most of what's mentioned here. And if i don't, i google it up!

But that's why i said 3sgte (specifically 3rd gen). There's a big difference between that and what came in the MR2 Turbo over here. Quite frankly, i'd rather just turbo the 5sfe and hope to god it held together than swap an MR2 Turbo motor in my car. That motor is such a pain in the ass it's not even funny.

So.... i'm off to go home finally. Tell me all about driving impressions with superchargers! I've never driven one in anger, so i have no knowledge base.

That depends on the supercharger as some people have said. Some superchargers make a lot of power low down and some don't. It is the same with turbos. So it will depend on where your supercharger makes its power.