I have been looking at RWD Volvos on the premise that they would have a handling advantage over front wheel drive cars. After driving a 740 Turbo yesterday, I realize that these things won't out-handle a pile of sand.
Every time that I start to consider a V70R (because, on paper, they are perfect), I hear horror stories about Haldex failures, and the occasional mention of converting them to FWD.
Last week, a stopped at a local, trusted, enthusiast owned garage and told them that I was in the market for an old Volvo wagon and had noticed that they had a few outside. I asked if they had any for sale and they said, "Talk to Matt. He's the one out in the shop under the old Volvo wagon."
So I talked to Matt. He showed me an 850 and a couple of V70s. We started to talk about Turbos and I mentioned the part about V70s and failed Haldex systems. He said, "Just pull the driveshaft. That's exactly what I'm doing on this V70 Cross Country right now. It only takes five minutes."
I tried to get a little more info from him, but he insists that's about all there is to it. I asked about swapping in the rear subframe of a FWD car, but he said it's not necessary.
So...is this guy nuts or is he a genius?
That's the standard practice when it fails and you don't want to fix it. I would imagine swapping in a FWD rear subframe would save some weight but it seems like a lot more work than it is worth.
From what I've read recently the system doesn't fail, it's the output for the drive shaft to the rear is soft. It's only a couple of hours on jack stands to replace the output with a new piece. The new parts have better heat treat and don't fail. I think it's one of those things where people are given a misdiagnosis and the real fix is easy compared to what people think it is.
I am not an expert and I haven't even stayed in a holiday inn for a long time.
I believe that's the same "fix" for AWD BMWs as well.
The science is sound, but then you're still stuck w/ all the weight of the AWD system without using the AWD system.
To me it should be a temporary fix to either fix the AWD or swap out for a FWD subframe et al.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
From what I have witnessed it isn't terribly bad to remove and replace (especially when you just relax and watch someone else do it) but when a used angle drive costs $500-600 and the cars can be bought for $1000-1500 most people probably don't think it's worth it.
From what I've read recently the system doesn't fail, it's the output for the drive shaft to the rear is soft. It's only a couple of hours on jack stands to replace the output with a new piece. The new parts have better heat treat and don't fail. I think it's one of those things where people are given a misdiagnosis and the real fix is easy compared to what people think it is.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
It's often uglier than that. The usual suspect is a sleeve that couples the transmission to the bevel drive (angle gear). On my V70R, the sleeve was trashed, the angle gear input was also trashed and I now have some electronic problem related to the haladex controller that causes the gauge cluster to die (CANbus FTW) so I still don't have AWD back.
IIRC, my local Volvo shop bills 4hrs to replace the sleeve if it comes out with his pullers. Mine did not and required mucho time (my own) grinding slots in it so I could use a different puller on it (a repurposed pitman arm puller of all things).
Pull the shaft, pull the angle drive, pull the diff, gut the outer CV joints and use them to hold the wheel bearings together.
Or, spend a few bucks on a drive sleeve, and do less work... As long as there are still splines on the input of the angle drive.
Also, remember- On 03 and newer, there are other awd failures that are much more common than losing the angle drive. Pressure sensor or the oil pump in the diff are much more common problems. Neither is a deal breaker, money-wise.
Also....Goddammit, a Volvo AWD system costs less damn money to fix than a Toyota Rav4, or a Hyundai Santa Fe, or a Chevrolet pickup truck. Quit whining.
Streetwiseguy said:
Also....Goddammit, a Volvo AWD system costs less damn money to fix than a Toyota Rav4, or a Hyundai Santa Fe, or a Chevrolet pickup truck. Quit whining.
Those are not on my list.
Vigo
MegaDork
8/7/19 2:55 p.m.
I think he's just saying that enthusiasts are complaining about having it better than normal people with their normal cars.
I personally wouldn't disable the system. If the thought of it breaking bothers you you can replace it before it breaks. If the thought of replacing it bothers you then yeah you could go ahead and take out of the rear driveshaft but have you driven a high-torque open diff FWD? In my opinion it's worth it to keep/fix the awd.
In reply to Vigo :
I was thinking more in terms of buying a car that is already broken.
The Haldex generally is solid and doesn't fail. The typical failure item is the splines on the input to the angle gear. There is nothing to locate the angle gear to the transmission except for the splines, and it is semi-exposed to the elements, so moisture and fretting cause fine rust (jeweler's rouge) to wear the splines away.
The '06-07 automatics have a beefier angle gear, but they still have the same wear-prone design. The '04-05 automatics and all manuals use the same hardware that all other P2 cars use.
The PITA about the angle gear is the input shaft is one piece with one of the bevel gears, and the unit is replace as assembly. It's not horrible ($1500?) in the grand scheme of things.
Streetwiseguy said:
Also....Goddammit, a Volvo AWD system costs less damn money to fix than a Toyota Rav4, or a Hyundai Santa Fe, or a Chevrolet pickup truck. Quit whining.
Yeah, price out how much it costs to put a CTS4 back together when the transfer case splines/transmission output splines strip out in the exact same failure mode.
Why go through the trouble when you could just buy the performance FWD model (T5)?
You start without the AWD and FOUR-C suspension which is a huge net-positive, IMO...
pointofdeparture said:
Why go through the trouble when you could just buy the performance FWD model (T5)?
You start without the AWD and FOUR-C suspension which is a huge net-positive, IMO...
I don't want to have any more cars that don't have active suspension.
It's that good.
Yeah, I haven't had to fix it. But I have close to 218k on the car, 33k of it mine, amd I haven't had to fix it...
And this chassis is thoroughly incompetent to handle the base 217hp engine with front drive. I tried it after living with my R for a year and was shocked at how much it sucked. (It was an S80, which is just an S60 with more legroom and a crappy interior)
Knurled. said:
I don't want to have any more cars that don't have active suspension.
It's that good.
Huh. The posts from owners in the thread right below this one establish a range of "it sucks" to "it's okay if you mess with it." Pretty wide range of opinions I guess...
The 4C damper system blows chunks. The ride is terrible in all modes and the fronts lock solid when the accelerometers located on the front struts move up fast simultaneously which means expansion joints and speed bumps are excruciating misadventures in real and imagined mechanical destruction. They dampers blow themselves up- defiantly HALF BAKED. I cant wait to remove them
The harsh suspension can be improved somewhat by moving the accelerometers from the strut bodies to the chassis.
Knurled. said:
And this chassis is thoroughly incompetent to handle the base 217hp engine with front drive. I tried it after living with my R for a year and was shocked at how much it sucked.
Did they somehow make the chassis worse in the P80 to P2 transition? My 855R with 243HP was great after changing out all of the bushings.
Woody said:
Streetwiseguy said:
Also....Goddammit, a Volvo AWD system costs less damn money to fix than a Toyota Rav4, or a Hyundai Santa Fe, or a Chevrolet pickup truck. Quit whining.
Those are not on my list.
Its not you. Its the berkeleying internet, that seems to believe Volvo uses the worst, most expensive AWD system in the history of the world.
Thats bullE36 M3.
The 4C is less bad in the R's, but it makes the XC70 worse in every possible configuration. There is no position that isn't worse than the stock Boge shocks and struts.
In reply to pointofdeparture :
Probably. All the weight might have something to do with it.
I don't suffer any of those ride quality issues. The only complaint I have besides the piss-poor travel, is that the stiff setting is TOO stiff for good handling. I often find myself engaging the transmission's Sport mode but leaving the chassis in Comfort or Sport. (Advanced automatically puts the drivetrain into Sport mode, but the struts feel like someone replaced the oil with concrete) It hops all over the damn place unless the road is perfectly smooth or you have your tire pressures adjusted precisely.
The accelerometers NEED to stiffen the struts when you hit a big bump, because there's seemingly a half inch of up travel. This is a ride height problem, not a Four-C problem.
It did take me a while to get used to the way it handles dips and swells in the road. The chassis does its best to keep the car from pitching forward and back, so it just sort of launches flatly off of dips and lands, like it was a skateboard.
Knurled. said:
In reply to pointofdeparture :
Probably. All the weight might have something to do with it.
A 2005 V70 T5 is 3,488 lbs. A 1995 850 T5 wagon is 3,461 lbs...I must be missing something here.
EvanB said:
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
From what I have witnessed it isn't terribly bad to remove and replace (especially when you just relax and watch someone else do it)
*ahem*
but when a used angle drive costs $500-600 and the cars can be bought for $1000-1500 most people probably don't think it's worth it.
That's the thing though... when you can find a used angle drive, it's actually not terribly expensive IF you have the 6 speed auto model, because every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a Cross Country isn't fighting you for it.
And cheap Rs are not easy to find... the last time I saw one advertised for under $8k, it was a complete POS that somebody started to part out, then changes his mind and threw T5 parts on (brakes, nose, dashboard, etc) to make it a running car so he could trade it in.
And that is for sedans. Wagons are crazy. Figure $10k-15k for a wagon, if you can find someone willing to let go of one.
(Yeah, I still look for S60Rs for sale. Like the guy said in Contact, why have one when you can have two for twice the price?)
pointofdeparture said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to pointofdeparture :
Probably. All the weight might have something to do with it.
A 2005 V70 T5 is 3,488 lbs. A 1995 850 T5 wagon is 3,461 lbs...I must be missing something here.
Me too. The few 850s I've experienced felt several hundred pounds lighter.
Knurled. said:
pointofdeparture said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to pointofdeparture :
Probably. All the weight might have something to do with it.
A 2005 V70 T5 is 3,488 lbs. A 1995 850 T5 wagon is 3,461 lbs...I must be missing something here.
Me too. The few 850s I've experienced felt several hundred pounds lighter.
Err...really thinking your "V70 T5s are bad because I drove an S80 and that is the same thing" argument isn't adding up.
A P2 V70 IS several hundred pounds lighter than an S80 which was 3,682-3,774 lbs in US trim depending on year and options, so 200-300lb difference...and considering a lot of that was probably the extra T6 weight over the front axle, kind of explains a lot.
Vigo
MegaDork
8/7/19 10:13 p.m.
I got my mom an S80 T6 which is like 270/280 rated and FWD. It will spin in 1st gear, that's about it. Other than that it's your typical mid-14 second luxury car you can get with low miles for 3000$. Spend 2-3x that and you can get a low-14 less-lux but not quite sports car Volvo that inspires threads such as this.
Don't get me wrong, there are V70Rs out there in certain specs that absolutely kill me and i'd love to own. But they'd have to be museum quality for me to even think about the 10k+ that many bring. I've spent enough time around early 00's Volvos to have my opinions about prices.
pointofdeparture said:Err...really thinking your "V70 T5s are bad because I drove an S80 and that is the same thing" argument isn't adding up.
A P2 V70 IS several hundred pounds lighter than an S80 which was 3,682-3,774 lbs in US trim depending on year and options, so 200-300lb difference...and considering a lot of that was probably the extra T6 weight over the front axle, kind of explains a lot.
Back up a tick. You're making a few assumptions and I haven't been clear.
I've worked on and driven a lot of P2s over the years. Then I bought my R. A year after having experienced exclusively nothing but my car, I had to spend a lot of quality time diagnosing a frustratingly intermittent drivability issue (the kind that works fine for us but acts up for the car's owner) in an S80, which had the same five cylinder turbo engine in a base model S60. What shocked me was how often it wanted to spin its tires in what I had grown accustomed to be normal driving situations. It had been a long time since I had to be careful when accelerating on a highway on-ramp!
It had been a while since I experienced an 850 since they are so rare up here, but experiencing EvanB's car (IIRC, a turbo automatic sedan) reminded me heavily of my (nedcar) S40 except with a more square interior. Felt very light on its feet.
Chassis setup does have a lot to do with how a car "feels". Hell, it's bizarre how just going from Comfort to Advanced on the four-c makes it feel like the wheelbase got six inches shorter. Not sure if that is because of the damping changes or steering feel changes or both.
