Two test drives this morning - 2018 Camaro SS 1LE and 2018 WRX STi

I should have driven the STi first.......................the Camaro is just completely insane, bonkers fast. And I owned a 2013 Mustang GT track pack, so I know how quick the modern muscle cars are. 

Rolled into the throttle in 2nd, the rear wiggled a bit before settling in and hooking, grab third back in the throttle, WHOOPS already north of 100mph. Just a short test drive, but the car feels solid, well built. No tramlining from the massive Goodyears (285/305), gearbox felt good. And in the normal suspension mode it's plenty comfortable for a DD. Fit with my helmet on with plenty of space up top.

Bad - The inside feels just as cramped as my BRZ, the rear seat may be even more useless though. The trunk and the opening are TINY. No putting even a small ice chest for track days in the back of it. And everyone is right, blind spots are massive, when trying to get on to the highway, I resorted to the "I'll just punch it to make sure no one is in the blind spot" to get to the onramp. It really feels like you're sitting in a bunker/submarine or something. I may go to a different dealer and just see if I can get a longer test drive in just an SS or lower model to see if it's something I could get used to.

Also, in reality, the car is so fast..........I think it really may be too much for HPDE for me. Call me an intermediate/advanced driver, the car is just, my mind is still warped a bit.

STi - You can tell it's still a quick car, but it felt slow compared to the SS, obviously. Brakes and suspension feel fantastic (again short test drive), the ergo was good and I fit with plenty of room with the helmet. This car has the STi short shifter, gearbox also felt good, but man is it a close ratio gearbox! But I would want the Limited for the better stereo, but would need to see if I can still get a helmet on with the moonroof that comes with the STi Limited, I wish the seat was still 1-2" lower so you feel more like your sitting IN the car vs ON it. 

Much more useable space, decent sized trunk, etc. I could actually put an ice chest, small set of tools and a couple of foldy chairs in the car for HPDE use. The STi for '18 has bigger 6 Piston Brembo's with larger rotors and two piston rears, new DCCD tuning and it's all electric now instead of the hydraulic/electric hybrid in the past.  And according to dyno's, the '18 is putting down 15-20whp more than the 15-17 STi's.

I spent awhile chatting with the sales guy, who is an enthusiast that owns a WRX and a BRZ and has sold Subaru's for a long time. He said the engine stuff is overblown and that 99 out 100 times, the issues come from guys that beat the crap out of them, have crappy mods and or tune's, and don't properly maintain them, or all 3. 

I'll probably go ahead and go drive a Mustang in the next week as well. But I'm sure it's going to fall into the same category as the Camaro as just ridiculously fast for an occasional HPDE car. 

At the moment, I'm leaning toward the STi.

Definitely interested in hearing your thoughts on the Mustang.  I don't think I'm in the market right now, but I have been looking at dealership websites for WRXs (regular and STi) and Mustangs lately.

I hated the interior of my 07 STI.  Seats were super, duper uncomfortable.  I heard you can get recaros in the STI now, I'd definitely spend the money for those. 

Gearbox does have really short gearing, I was at least 1-2 gears higher on the track in the same corners as I was with any of my previous cars.

The turbo 4 models of both the Mustang and Camaro are much more "human speed" cars. They give you all the great things about the chassis without melting your eyeballs on the straights. 

doc - This one had the Recaro's, not bad, the new interiors weren't terrible, seemed similar to my '15 BRZ other than the Ergo. I wish the seats were a bit lower.

mazdadeuce - That's true. But I wouldn't be able to bring myself to skip the V8 versions because of the soundtrack. Just sitting in the SS as the engine fired up but a ridiculous grin on my face.

Yes, I remember the seats sitting really high in the car.  Kinda felt like you were perched on them.  Plenty of headroom in the car, tho mine didn't have a sunroof.  I remember wishing they were lower, well that and that they weren't like sitting on a block on concrete!

Nice! I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the mustang - personally I was lusting a bit after the v6 1le camaro - seemed like a lot of car for a little money (lightly used or new)

I hear you on the car almost being too capable to be comfortable with in HPDE. I saw that first hand with all these guys in the novice group running Corvette C7s. Insanely fast but then the guy doesn't know the line, or where to safely point by etc.

In reply to docwyte :

Gee, my Fiesta has height adjustment on the drivers seat.

I was afraid of my C6 Z06 at the track.  I also think street cars just aren't as confidence inspiring as a real track car with proper brakes and tires, suspension, and safety gear.  The compliance that makes a car fine on the street is always a track compromise, exception perhaps fancy suspension like magnetic dampers and soforth. 

As an aside, personally I just don't prefer big cars and the Camero having such compromised visibility, passenger space and storage space despite being quite large pisses me off.

I'm working with a theory that there needs to be a balance between chassis (which is brakes, steering, suspension, all that) tires, and engine. When one is much much better or much much worse it affects the whole package. I think that's why the STi can feel better than the SS even though the SS is violently faster. It's also why the BRZ feels so wonderful when you're using the tires/suspension how it's designed to be worked, because all three are fairly well balanced. 

I have a friend with a new ZL1 1LE and the engine in that car is so over the top bonkers that it's almost hard to enjoy the car while turning. You just have SO much engine, all the time. The V wagon is that way too but with less power to go along with less chassis and tires. My old autocross Civic had unlimited chassis compared to the motor. I had a Volvo 245 that was perfectly balanced. Slow as berk, but an absolute joy. 

z31maniac said:

 

STi - You can tell it's still a quick car, but it felt slow compared to the SS, obviously. Brakes and suspension feel fantastic (again short test drive), the ergo was good and I fit with plenty of room with the helmet. This car has the STi short shifter, gearbox also felt good, but man is it a close ratio gearbox! But I would want the Limited for the better stereo, but would need to see if I can still get a helmet on with the moonroof that comes with the STi Limited, I wish the seat was still 1-2" lower so you feel more like your sitting IN the car vs ON it. 

Much more useable space, decent sized trunk, etc. I could actually put an ice chest, small set of tools and a couple of foldy chairs in the car for HPDE use. The STi for '18 has bigger 6 Piston Brembo's with larger rotors and two piston rears, new DCCD tuning and it's all electric now instead of the hydraulic/electric hybrid in the past.  And according to dyno's, the '18 is putting down 15-20whp more than the 15-17 STi's.

I spent awhile chatting with the sales guy, who is an enthusiast that owns a WRX and a BRZ and has sold Subaru's for a long time. He said the engine stuff is overblown and that 99 out 100 times, the issues come from guys that beat the crap out of them, have crappy mods and or tune's, and don't properly maintain them, or all 3. 

 

A few little poitns:

1. IDK why people worry about getting the "upgraded" sound system on cars. Even the upgraded factory systems are generally garbage compared to pretty much anything mid-to-upper end aftermarket. I'm guessing that the new STI probably has a lot of integration of "other" things into the stereo HU? Or is it just a stereo/video HU? If the lattter, get the base, replace the HU and speakers with aftermarket for less money and better sound/functionality.  I am speaking regarding my '09, so it may not be as seamless in the new one, I haven't looked (yet).

2. Interesting about the seat being too high. Again speaking of my 09 (with sunroof), I'm 6' tall and have the seat all the way "up" (using the manual height lever). At the low setting it feels like I'm sitting on the floor under the dashboard. Guess it's not the same in the new car - hmm.

3. I'm imagining you going to the dealers with your helmet in hand, and some service writer making note "deny warranty claims to that guy" hahaha.....

I would think that the whole premise of a ZL1 1LE would be to embrace the vehicle gradually. Then eventually progressing to the point where the confidence level allows the individual to experience the entire package as intended.....only at a much more intense level. For if one can truly handle something such as this, why would you want for less? Just asking.........     

I think some of these newer cars are finally getting to the point that the power is finally crazy enough to outweigh the general tameness of new cars with all their insulation and traction etc. Mazdeuce's CTS-V was the slowest feeling 11-second car i've ever driven, and i don't mean that in a bad way. It's still VERY fast. But i think the 650-700hp cars out now are probably enough to scare you again, even through all the stifling modernity. 

Gents, keep in mind it was the SS, not the ZL1. I can't even imagine how insane the ZL1 is with another 200hp/tq

irish44j said:

z31maniac said:

 

STi - You can tell it's still a quick car, but it felt slow compared to the SS, obviously. Brakes and suspension feel fantastic (again short test drive), the ergo was good and I fit with plenty of room with the helmet. This car has the STi short shifter, gearbox also felt good, but man is it a close ratio gearbox! But I would want the Limited for the better stereo, but would need to see if I can still get a helmet on with the moonroof that comes with the STi Limited, I wish the seat was still 1-2" lower so you feel more like your sitting IN the car vs ON it. 

Much more useable space, decent sized trunk, etc. I could actually put an ice chest, small set of tools and a couple of foldy chairs in the car for HPDE use. The STi for '18 has bigger 6 Piston Brembo's with larger rotors and two piston rears, new DCCD tuning and it's all electric now instead of the hydraulic/electric hybrid in the past.  And according to dyno's, the '18 is putting down 15-20whp more than the 15-17 STi's.

I spent awhile chatting with the sales guy, who is an enthusiast that owns a WRX and a BRZ and has sold Subaru's for a long time. He said the engine stuff is overblown and that 99 out 100 times, the issues come from guys that beat the crap out of them, have crappy mods and or tune's, and don't properly maintain them, or all 3. 

 

 

A few little poitns:

1. IDK why people worry about getting the "upgraded" sound system on cars. Even the upgraded factory systems are generally garbage compared to pretty much anything mid-to-upper end aftermarket. I'm guessing that the new STI probably has a lot of integration of "other" things into the stereo HU? Or is it just a stereo/video HU? If the lattter, get the base, replace the HU and speakers with aftermarket for less money and better sound/functionality.  I am speaking regarding my '09, so it may not be as seamless in the new one, I haven't looked (yet).

2. Interesting about the seat being too high. Again speaking of my 09 (with sunroof), I'm 6' tall and have the seat all the way "up" (using the manual height lever). At the low setting it feels like I'm sitting on the floor under the dashboard. Guess it's not the same in the new car - hmm.

3. I'm imagining you going to the dealers with your helmet in hand, and some service writer making note "deny warranty claims to that guy" hahaha.....

I worry about the stereo because I will still drive the car on the street and love to blast my Mastodon/Meshuggah/etc. I'm also not 17 anymore and don't care about pulling apart the interior to run wires, change speakers, install a small sub and 1+ amps, change the headunit, etc. 

Keep in mind my current car is a BRZ, so you really sit IN the car. My seat feeling in the STi was with the Recaro lowered as far as it would go. Again, this was after being in the new SS 1LE, where you feel like you're in racecar just sans the cage/halo seat/nets.

Actually me taking the helmet is why the Chevy dealer let me test drive a 1LE. 

I told the sales guy straight up, "I'm looking for a new DD/HPDE car, Chevy honors the warranty on these if you leave them stock. I brought my helmet to see if I would fit in the car. If we need to satisfy your boss, we can pull my credit, and I have my offer letter on my income as well. I'm not here to BS you or waste your time. I'm interested in buying a new car in the next few weeks."

Incredibly polite salesman grabbed the key and we took it out. Sales manager was also very cool when I told him, No there is nothing you can do right now to get me in the car, I'm doing more test drives today.

Vigo said:

I think some of these newer cars are finally getting to the point that the power is finally crazy enough to outweigh the general tameness of new cars with all their insulation and traction etc. Mazdeuce's CTS-V was the slowest feeling 11-second car i've ever driven, and i don't mean that in a bad way. It's still VERY fast. But i think the 650-700hp cars out now are probably enough to scare you again, even through all the stifling modernity. 

They are. Remember, I used to track Sportbikes, so something that is "quick" isn't new to me. The new cars are just so absolutely bonkers.

I've been trying to talk myself out of the SS 1LE for nearly 24 hours now because the STi is still plenty fast and my local track (Hallett) is tight, technical with 90' of elevation change. I'm not sure you'd get into 4th on the front straight in the 1LE.

But damn does it look good and sound fantastic.

mazdeuce - Seth said:

I'm working with a theory that there needs to be a balance between chassis (which is brakes, steering, suspension, all that) tires, and engine. When one is much much better or much much worse it affects the whole package. I think that's why the STi can feel better than the SS even though the SS is violently faster. It's also why the BRZ feels so wonderful when you're using the tires/suspension how it's designed to be worked, because all three are fairly well balanced. 

I have a friend with a new ZL1 1LE and the engine in that car is so over the top bonkers that it's almost hard to enjoy the car while turning. You just have SO much engine, all the time. The V wagon is that way too but with less power to go along with less chassis and tires. My old autocross Civic had unlimited chassis compared to the motor. I had a Volvo 245 that was perfectly balanced. Slow as berk, but an absolute joy. 

 

There is balance with the SS 1LE, again not the ZL1, it's just that limits are so high as to be insane for everyone outside of a professional driver. The car is that good.
But the soundtrack and looks.................but I can't get anything in the car for an HPDE. So I'm torn.

I have a RX-8 with a 7.6 cubic foot trunk and I believe the BRZ's trunk size is similar (7 cubic feet), but a little more functional in terms of opening, shape dimensions, etc., while the rear seats have less room.  We've gone on week long trips with twice as much stuff as normal people would pack and it can hold plenty.  With some items we simply need to be a bit creative.  eg. Perhaps the big cooler goes in the back seat, passenger side with the seat moved forward, instead of the trunk?  I'd argue the Camaro's trunk is significantly larger (9.1 cubic feet) and the shape better than the RX-8s, but the opening might not be that much better.  The rear seats are significantly less useful.  I've certainly never had any issues packing my tool box, socket set, jack, fluids, etc. for a HPDE.  My coolers have always been inside the car for the trip and left outside with the tools while I'm on the track.

Those new Camaros are really good cars.  I’m looking for a 2010 is normal v6 spd.   I think they have the right balance of power and chassis dynamics to keep me entertained used versions are 10k or less. 

Snrub said:

I have a RX-8 with a 7.6 cubic foot trunk and I believe the BRZ's trunk size is similar (7 cubic feet), but a little more functional in terms of opening, shape dimensions, etc., while the rear seats have less room.  We've gone on week long trips with twice as much stuff as normal people would pack and it can hold plenty.  With some items we simply need to be a bit creative.  eg. Perhaps the big cooler goes in the back seat, passenger side with the seat moved forward, instead of the trunk?  I'd argue the Camaro's trunk is significantly larger (9.1 cubic feet) and the shape better than the RX-8s, but the opening might not be that much better.  The rear seats are significantly less useful.  I've certainly never had any issues packing my tool box, socket set, jack, fluids, etc. for a HPDE.  My coolers have always been inside the car for the trip and left outside with the tools while I'm on the track.

The opening for the Camaro trunk and the shape. It would be good for soft bags and a trip (we'd take my girlfriends 2015 Honda Fit instead), it just was tiny. The BRZ trunk is loads more usable.

Is the back seat a deal breaker? Go test drive a base Cayman. They are a joy to drive daily and are amazing for HPDE days.

loosecannon said:

Is the back seat a deal breaker? Go test drive a base Cayman. They are a joy to drive daily and are amazing for HPDE days.

It's not, my previous DD before the BRZ was an NC Miata.

Unfortunately, a clean 981 S with PDK and Sport Chrono+ is another $20-25k over a new SS 1LE. 

Trust me, I'd love to have a Porsche in the garage.

You don't need the S to have a great time and even if you do, you can still lease a 1 or 2 year old Cayman S and get the extended Porsche warranty. All the benefits of a new car without the cost.

I've been looking at the 1LEs as a future track car.   One of the things on my negative list is that I don't think you could get through the side windows with a helmet on (and maybe with the helmet off too) if there was a issue and you needed out in hurry.  

Chevy has made the fastest cars for your money Camaro and Corvette. But yes the Camaro is such a large vehicle with a contradictory small amount of space. Avg econobox that is much smaller will have greater room and visibility. Mustang is a more popular mass produced slightly cheaper slower car, at least for a lot of its life. Same thing with STi vs Evo IMO. The DSM engine package is in a different league yet you don't see nearly as many on the road. I guess they stopped making them. Obviously ordering the best 2018 engine package with the best 2018 chassis isn't something you can do at the dealership.