Ugh, I want to hit the track

 Lol Spec Miata becomes Spec Pinata.

Yes, in LeMons contact is very much frowned upon.  It's an instant black flag if contact is made.  

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Then why race with that group?  In 58 years of racing I've had one contact when my throttle stuck wide open at Canada corner entrance.  Repairs took 15 minutes.  
    As far as off track incidents I suppose anyone racing will have their share of those events.  But my race car suffered only from garage rash or trailer rash. 

If you want seat time and safety, this might be the ticket (NMNA)

In reply to LanEvo :

Where is the link to the Legends? that is a great deal.

frenchyd said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Then why race with that group?  In 58 years of racing I've had one contact when my throttle stuck wide open at Canada corner entrance.  Repairs took 15 minutes.  

It's the largest class around with 30-40 car fields (for a single class) not being unusual.  I don't race there, but clearly many people do and many of them aren't interested in 13/13 racing.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) said:

Oh I'll drive a race car to the track. I'll drive a gutted, no-cat, no wipers, no radio car a few hours to race. The issue is finding one that I can keep street-legal, PA has inspections and emissions. That would be my ideal, a caged Civic with enough working bits and interior to be inspected. If it were light enough, I could dolly-tow it to the track, which would be ideal because I will eventually break something. 

I have a PA registered track car, and as it's over 15 years old, it's registered as a classic and doesn't need emissions testing. I have a Corsa extreme exhaust and don't have cats. The inspectors have typically viewed it as a car that doesn't do much road mileage, so they were prepared to be lenient.

I've not had any problems getting the safety inspection sticker at my local garage, as the prep for reliable track duty covers all of the safety inspection points.

In reply to fusion66 :

For the sake of tracking that car one could slap 200TW tires on it and go have fun. As B-spec cars are gutless the consumables should last forever. 

red_stapler said:

frenchyd said:

I frankly don't want you on the race track with me.  I don't want to swap paint or body parts. Sports car racing isn't supposed to be a cut throat game.  It can happen but expecting it?  

I think Pinchvalve is more worried about collisions with the scenery rather than the other cars. 

100%, I would be the most cautious, point-by car out there in a W2W race. 

In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :

Two weeks ago my son and I were playing imaginary track day hack. I saw a 98 Accord 5 speed manual for $2200 (it had a stack of maintainnece recipts and the air worked). A quick check of aftermarket bits showed we could grab sway bars, KYBs and some upgraded pads for another $600. I even quiped that we could probably find a suitable roll hoop, add some rudimentry door bars and find a used race seat. All in would be around $3500 to $4000.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Back in the day, @HalfFast had a late 90's Accord and was wicked quick.  We had some very memorable battles when I was in the 944.  Good times.  Good choice.  

I am of the mind that a track day car doesn't need a cage.  If you need a cage, you are going into it with the wrong mindset.  Get a harness bar, good belts and a Hans...I can get behind that.  But if the plan is HPDE, I would not invest that way.  Just my 2 cents.  I may be repeating myself.  

The only way I would go that route is if you ABSOLUTELY know the end goal is W2W, and I think from the OP original post, that is not the path.

jh36 said:

I am of the mind that a track day car doesn't need a cage.  If you need a cage, you are going into it with the wrong mindset.  Get a harness bar, good belts and a Hans...I can get behind that.  But if the plan is HPDE, I would not invest that way.  Just my 2 cents.  I may be repeating myself.  

I would not recommend a harness bar and belts without at least a roll bar/half cage, even in a sedan.  Take a look at the video floating around of the Corvette that flipped at Willow Springs to see how poorly a sheet metal roof structure can hold up.

As for whether or not one needs a full cage on track, each of us has his own personal safety threhold.  Mine has now reached the point where I don't want to go out on track without a cage, even in "HPDE".

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I run a caged car at HPDE becuase I have one. If I didn't, I'd want a half cage / competition roll hoop for the exact reason you noted. 

I also want to drive harder than the 75-80% I would in non caged car, with the half cage I'd do 90% without worry, beyond that I want a full cage, cell, fire system et al.

I think a half cage, seat and harness are a fantastic idea, just for keeping the fleshy bits stable behind the wheel. You need to waste a lot of energy to hold yourself in the driving position, let the equipment handle that. At that point, it's every bit as much performance mod as safety.

trigun7469 said:

In reply to LanEvo :

Where is the link to the Legends? that is a great deal.

It was a few months ago and the ad was only up a day or two before they sold. My point is that you can find good deals out there if you're patient and keep an eye out.

See, this is why I run the Rio in Sundae Cup. 100% all the time is still slow. One set of tires lasts all season. One set of brakes last at least a season. Max velocity at Road America: 106mph. Some people hate slow cars. I love them. Adore the. Want to go to the garage and cuddle with it.

I'd like to run a half cage in my 996.  Problem is all the bolt in ones use the lower front seat belt mounts, which is a single bolt in shear.  In other words, useless really for safety.  Anything else requires welding, or drilling holes in the chassis, which I refuse to do.  So I just take it a little easy out on track instead.  I do have a harness bar for it that I may eventually install so I can run harnesses.

So that's a choice, you can have a civilized "street" car with a half cage that's still good to drive on the street and will work well on the track, or you can cage the car, make it worse for the street and gain a little on the track.  All depends on what you're willing to accept.

In reply to docwyte :

There is a very livable compromise for the half cage: you first weld flat plates to the body then weld the half cage / roll hoop to those. When the time comes you simply cut the tube of and grind any excess tubing flat. This way the carpets will still fit properly over the flat plate post cage removal.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Yeah, not doing that to my low mileage 996 Turbo.

Similar here with the cayman. Even the harness bar requires cutting up the interior panels which I'm not interested in especially since it's a somewhat unique interior color so replacement panels are extra hard to come by. But even then a) full harness with no rollbar seems sketchy (see corvette rollover referenced above, granted a real fixed roof car would be sturdier, but still) and b) the stock seat doesn't interact well with shoulder belts anyway.

docwyte said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

Yeah, not doing that to my low mileage 996 Turbo.

I understand; besides I'd be willing to bet your uncaged 996 is safer than my tin can fully caged Datsun in most crashes.

To me there's a hard line between "HPDE car" and "race car".  You can have lots of fun doing HPDE relatively safely and cheaply with a street car that has decent tires and brake pads.  Thousands of people do it every year. Unless you're just dying to compete, this is the way to go.

Once you start heading down the road of a bucket seat and harnesses, IMO you might as well just jump to a fully prepped race car that can pass tech in a popular class. It's very hard to do safety gear halfway, it's sorta an all-or-nothing proposition.  Costs add up quickly; just the stuff you wear runs into four figures, and it's nothing to spend $3-4k on car prep (not including the car) before it ever sees its first lap. Everything you do to make it good for the track will make it bad for the street; quickly you'll want to have a towing situation figured out. May end up paying for trailer storage.  If you're starting from scratch, you can easily be out of pocket $10-15k to get started even with "cheap" racing like Lemons or B Spec.

If it were me: HPDE in a mildly prepped street car to get as many laps as you can. When you're ready to try racing, get a pay seat with a Lemons or Champ team a couple times a year for $3-4k a weekend, arrive and drive. 

I seem to be an outlier here, but I'll chime in again.

If you want to get some balance in your life with track days, I'd do a street car, good tires and brakes as ShinnyGroove said above.  

I really think if you are going into HPDE thinking you need a full cage, you are in the wrong place.  If you have a caged car and intend to go racing, that's all well and good....my kids have done that and so have many friends.  But if you plan to drive to the track, not trailer, I would not go that route.  

I take back my statement of getting a harness bar and 5/6 point belts. I went there because one thing that TOTALLY CREEPS ME OUT is being on track without a HANS device.  Yes, I started with nothing, eventually raced and did DE's with a foam collar and somewhere at the beginning of the century started using a HANS.  

A HANS can be had that doesn't go under the shoulder straps, so that eliminates the need for the bar and harness in my opinion.

The thought of being on track with short sleeves, short pants and no HANS is sort of like one of those naked presentations dreams.  It would just be weirder than life itself.

Everyone has a different comfort zone, so you have to call it.  But if I wanted to get on track, I'd prep a street car well and go that route.  

One more thought...I would highly discourage driving a caged car on public roads without a helmet.  I think that's a worse choice than HPDE without a cage.  I expect to be the outlier here, but that's my opinion.  I would not put that barrier between myself and a track day.

In reply to jh36 :

You're not an outlier.  I totally agree with you.  For HPDE days, a good set of front pads, proper brake fluid and good/safe tires and have at it.  You don't even need to use 200TW tires, just solid high-performance tires will work...especially if you're a relative newbie.  I plan to track my 128i in the very near future and that's all I'm doing.  Porterfield pads, high temp fluid and send it!  Am I going to hang the car at the absolute ragged edge lap after lap?  No, but I guarantee you I'm going to push it hard enough to have a damn good time.  

LeMons weekends aren't even as expensive as ShinnyGroove said.  I'm in a top ten finishing A class car and I don't spend even close to $3k-$4k per weekend.  I'm probably around $1600-$1800 all in.  I could do it for less if I wanted, but I'm a diva...I fly to most of my races, I like to have my own rental car and stay at a hotel instead of the track.  

I use the Simpson hybrid in my 996, no need for harnesses with it...