So I am a veteran to old car restoration. Mostly imported 4x4 and rare survivor trucks.
Long story short.... I bought another guys headache and decided to not complete the project. It was going to be a custom stretch FJ45 but it looked like it would be very time consuming and probably cost 30k. I parted out most of it to recoup my cash.
Now I have leftover parts and I thought I might as well use them to build a autocross car. Here are the parts that I have which might work in a V-8 swap : high nickel block 1969 Chevy SBC 350 rebuilt with low miles, rebuilt turbo 400 and torque converter, Ford 9" 31 spline 4.11 rear end with rear disk brakes high pinion detroit locker made by Currie 55.7 inches wide, new driveline, aluminum radiator, and electric fan. I am open to going LS1 instead of the old school SBC.
I will readily admit I know very little about V8 swaps into rear wheel drive cars. I have wanted to do autocross for a long time. Cars that interest me are older RX-7, Miata's, 240Z, 280Z, 240sx, old Volvos etc. I am open to which cars would be best to be rallied on gravel roads and driven in auto cross. Other factors that interest me are that this will be my first V-8 Swap done in my barn. Thanks for your ideas in advance
While a TH400 and 9 inch rear are nice heavy duty parts they seem too heavy duty for the cars you list. A TH350 and a 8.8 rear might be better suited and cheaper. I understand that's what you have available.
A LS powered 240sx is fantastic. It can be built with off the shelf parts. The biggest hurdle is finding a clean 240sx to work with.
RIDDLER said:
So I am a veteran to old car restoration. Mostly imported 4x4 and rare survivor trucks.
Long story short.... I bought another guys headache and decided to not complete the project. It was going to be a custom stretch FJ45 but it looked like it would be very time consuming and probably cost 30k. I parted out most of it to recoup my cash.
Now I have leftover parts and I thought I might as well use them to build a autocross car. Here are the parts that I have which might work in a V-8 swap : high nickel block 1969 Chevy SBC 350 rebuilt with low miles, rebuilt turbo 400 and torque converter, Ford 9" 31 spline 4.11 rear end with rear disk brakes high pinion detroit locker made by Currie 55.7 inches wide, new driveline, aluminum radiator, and electric fan. I am open to going LS1 instead of the old school SBC.
I will readily admit I know very little about V8 swaps into rear wheel drive cars. I have wanted to do autocross for a long time. Cars that interest me are older RX-7, Miata's, 240Z, 280Z, 240sx, old Volvos etc. I am open to which cars would be best to be rallied on gravel roads and driven in auto cross. Other factors that interest me are that this will be my first V-8 Swap done in my barn. Thanks for your ideas in advance
First... long debunked myth. There is no such thing as a high-nickel chevy block. With the exception of modest changes to tin concentration, it's all the same alloy. You wouldn't want it anyway. Nickle increases hardness, which is great for a generator application or a John Deere tractor, but terrible for a performance engine.
I'm an old-school hot rodder, and I'm slowly coming to the realization that there is very little reason to build an SBC anymore. LS is lighter, way easier to make power, and becoming almost as cheap as SBCs.
I also agree with Stampie. No need for big, heavy, old-school transmissions unless you're drag racing. Nothing wrong with them, but the TH400 is one of the most power-robbing transmissions you can use as a sacrifice for torque capacity.
Porsche 928 would be a great start. It already had a V8 under the hood, and the word on the street is that it is the stiffest unibody production car ever built. Lots of folks have put LS engines in them.
In reply to Curtis73 :
I love it whenever the 928 gets some love, but I'm not sure it would be good for the autocross course or gravel roads that the OP mentioned. They are absolutely lovely grand tourers, apparently decent road racers and that's about it. Seems like OP has the experience to pull it off, but probably one of the harder routes to go.
I'd say sell the small block to an old school hot rodder and with that money get one of the 500 variations of LS.
RIDDLER
New Reader
1/23/20 10:24 p.m.
Wow that is one heck of a reply to a newbie. thanks. So what I read here is sell everything I have which is fine. And then choose the car that I want to install a LS into. Are any of these cars easier to install a LS into than others? I have heard RX 7 gen 1 but the aftermarket support dried up this past year. I honestly like all of them. I would prefer easier install and solid construction. I will most likely add a cage, proper safety seats, and harness belts etc once the car is running driving. I'm watching other builds and 400-450 HP seems like a sweet spot for me. Thanks again to all of you
RIDDLER
New Reader
1/23/20 10:47 p.m.
So this is a little off the original topic. A affordable Jaguar XJS with the troubled V-12 just came available. I know it is not a rally car. But any thoughts on a LS swap with maybe a single turbo? thanks
1St Gen RX7 have some odd issues with the suspension that make them less ideal. Plus they are getting harder to find.
2nd RX7 is much easier to swap and they are generally better starting points for autocross. Most autocross cars just need copious amounts of tire, very little suspension movement to be effective.
A 944 LS-swap is as simple as a kit and the 944 of your choice. Sell the solid axle stuff and use the 944's rear mounted transaxle and suspension, stiffen it up in various proven ways, stuff wide sticky tires under it. Enjoy. For rally, you'll want to raise it up and armor the underside quite a bit, etc.
The Jag V12 is actually a decent motor, its the rest of the car that is troubleprone. So swapping a V8 in place won't fix the underlying issues with the electrical systems. So I'd look elsewhere. That said, the work that TWR did on the XJS to go road racing was nothing short of amazing and that V12 simply sang the song of horsepower:
RIDDLER
New Reader
1/24/20 12:40 a.m.
Great video. What about a 1989 240SX Fastback 2 door ? Affordable in my view at $3200. Manual transmission. 200k miles. thoughts?
RIDDLER said:
So this is a little off the original topic. A affordable Jaguar XJS with the troubled V-12 just came available. I know it is not a rally car. But any thoughts on a LS swap with maybe a single turbo? thanks
Nominating for post of the year.
Stampie said:
RIDDLER said:
So this is a little off the original topic. A affordable Jaguar XJS with the troubled V-12 just came available. I know it is not a rally car. But any thoughts on a LS swap with maybe a single turbo? thanks
Nominating for post of the year.
And I'm just over here with my popcorn...
RIDDLER, welcome aboard! When you have time, please tell us about some of your past or present projects!
Unless you want old-school appearance, any variant of LS will meet your goals more efficiently. Lighter, better chambers, dry intakes, roller cams, etc.
I favor the 944 for looks. You can adapt any engine to the front of the torque tube and keep the rear-mounted transaxle, or you can use the trans of yours choice an fab in a live axle and suspension, or find a complete IRS assembly from an FE/RWD vehicle and fab that in. Be aware that you'll lose vacuum brake booster due to packaging, but adding a Hydro-boost to these cars is well documented.
2nd gen RX7 would be my 2nd choice, and is likely an easier build because it's a more standard powertrain layout.
whatever you start with, mileage isn't as important as structural condition, as you're talking about a full rebuild with a good bit of fab work.
keep us posted!
RIDDLER
New Reader
1/24/20 9:06 a.m.
Thanks AngryCorvair and others. I don't desire the old school look. That is not really desirable to me. The LS clearly makes the most sense. I guess the car will depend on what I find locally. I would buy a 944 if I could find one. I would like to find a project car that perhaps was started and not completed so I can save time and have it on the road this summer. My previous projects are vintage Land Cruisers like the FJ40, FJ55, and FJ60. A handful of complete nut and bolt restorations on these old Land Cruisers. Now I am doing a couple Land Rovers from 1965. 109" and 88". These rovers are simple slow machines but tedious to restore. Both vintage rovers were in good condition but ignored for 30-40 years. A major gap is that I have zero experience with modifying cars to a race style platform. We do have a local track last time I checked and we have a autocross group that is well organized.
Looking at your list, a lot of your cars are subject to drift/classic tax (I think only the Volvo's escape, but that depends on your idea of "old volvo")
The first gen RX-7, I'd skip just for parts availability. The Second gens still have a good aftermarket, but the rear suspension on them is "interesting" with their DTSS system. I think you can get a toe eliminator to fix that though.
The old Z's I think should be left as old Z's. The pre-77's I have a real soft spot for.
The 240sx is subject to drift tax (yo), but a great car. If you can afford to buy in to a clean example, I'd say this is the way I would lean for sure.
Honestly, I'd probably go "Miata". Plenty of aftermarket support. Plenty of cars to be had. Great suspension. Plenty of knowledge on the forums.
Failing that. What about a '85-'89 2wd Toyota pickup or something similar? (ooh! Or perhaps an old Celica Liftback!) I think that would be an absolute RIOT and you seem to have some background with the brand.
Edit: I forgot about the Porsche 944. I say "skip". The rear mounted transaxle, I think, will become a bottleneck for power/hard launches. With little/no aftermarket replacements you might find yourself stuck with a limitation that's not easy/possible to work around.
RIDDLER said:
Wow that is one heck of a reply to a newbie. thanks.
I think you'll find that we're a pretty cool bunch. No flaming newbies here. You and I will talk a lot I'm sure. I spent years in hot rodding and restorations.
Welcome RIDDLER- I can tell by your posts asking about Jag V12s you're probably gonna fit in just fine. And I'm gonna second for you to post up old projects of yours- we love to see what people have done, and this community really is just a bunch of builders.
I can't go into much detail on autocross chassis, but I CAN say that you might want to reconsider going with the 240SX. All the Johnny-come-lately drift wannabes go for them because of past popular drifters, not simply because the chassis are so great- and this has led to the cars being very expensive for what you're getting, and you're regularly getting something that has been used for racing already with all the bad connotations that come with that. But if you're cool with the markup, their aftermarket is staggering and the chassis is basically the Fox body of Japan.
Miata as Hungary Bill mentioned is a great choice. I would actually advocate for 80s Toyota- the 3rd Gen Supra and Celica. They're basically the one kid of Will Smith who's a lawyer and not trying to be their dad- overshadowed is how i'd describe them both. They're both IRS rears, have parts commonality through the 2000s (with LSDs being found in later 4Runners) and have a long history of V8 swaps from the cheap-and-deathless 1UZ-FEs to LS'es to whatever. I think they had problems with Toe angles.
I also second Curtis- sell off the 350 and go LS unless you're real budget-limited. It's just.... better, to the point where I can't think of a scenario in an engine swap where I could ever make more power with a modified 350 than a modified LS. The latter it seems, will always be more reliable, cheaper, make more power, get better milage, or a combination of all of those.
Can the car be American? Plenty of Camaro and S10s ready to gobble up that LS. Even Fox Mustangs eat LS'. Suspension galore for everything I just mentioned.
If not, I say Volvo. They only have a slight hipster tax, but I think those dudes moved on to early SUVs. Fun and unexpected, especially in wagon form.
I notice you're in Spokane, WA. There's a small group of us here in the PNW and I tend to follow the local Porsche 944 groups, so if I see or hear of an interesting project come up for sale. A buddy of mine road races a 924 Turbo with an Audi 20V Turbo and another is building a 944 Rally car with an Audi 20V Turbo motor (its based around a brand new chassis that was never used, pretty impressive build so far) and another owns my old 944 Turbo S and competes in Hillclimb and Autocross with it (its a beast!).
As to the rear mounted transaxle being an issue. The Audi 016 5-speed on the 944 is pretty stout, there are several GT40/Lambo V12 kits running them in the middle of the car. Hard launches can be an issue, and there are relatively cheap fixes to help that, mostly around stiffening the transaxle mount to reduce the drivetrain twisting and a stiffening plate for the rear of the transaxle. Guards, Porsche/Audi and Quaife all make limited slips for them and many of the V8 folks swap 5th gear ratios to help it cruise a bit better.
Lots of info on this forum about LS swapping the 944/928: http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/
The "Drift" tax is real and its irritating for those that have little to no interest or just want a decent chassis to start with. Another option might be a BMW. Similar to the Volvo in configuration, but generally a bit better supported for performance use. An E36 chassis can be relatively cheap right now and there are LS swaps for them, even the larger sedans can hold their own on a track with enough power added.
Welcome again and we love builds of all types, so feel free to start some threads in the Builds section on anything you feel like sharing.
docwyte
UberDork
1/24/20 11:13 a.m.
Having done an LS swap into a 944 Turbo, I'd NEVER DO IT AGAIN. PERIOD. It's NOT as simple as you think and it takes ALOT of work to get the car to work properly on track.
Out of all the cars you've listed, the 944 has the narrowest engine bay, by far. If I had to pick a car to do an LS swap into, I'd go with an E36 BMW, as that car has a huge engine bay, it just swallows up the LS like its nothing. The LS also fits better into the 240SX and FC/FD RX7.
The LS in the 944 creates a few issues as you can't reuse the factory vacuum brake booster, so you either need to go hydroboost (what I did) or manual/dual manual master cylinders. Then there's the issue of very small frontal area so keeping the LS cool is difficult. I ended up not only using the largest Ron Davis radiator that would fit but also a gigantic oil cooler AND a secondary radiator from an Audi S4 V8. PLUS a ton of hood vents.
The stock 944 transaxle will hold a basic LS as long as you don't do a launch. The Turbo transaxle is much preferred, as are the larger Turbo brakes. None of those gearboxes are geared properly for the LS, they're all too short and there's no good way to add a 6th gear to get a true overdrive. Unlike the FC/FD/240's you can't run the T56 that mates to the LS.
So, basically, pick any other car than the 944 to put an LS into. You'll thank me later.
docwyte said:
Having done an LS swap into a 944 Turbo, I'd NEVER DO IT AGAIN. PERIOD. It's NOT as simple as you think and it takes ALOT of work to get the car to work properly on track.
Out of all the cars you've listed, the 944 has the narrowest engine bay, by far. If I had to pick a car to do an LS swap into, I'd go with an E36 BMW, as that car has a huge engine bay, it just swallows up the LS like its nothing. The LS also fits better into the 240SX and FC/FD RX7.
The LS in the 944 creates a few issues as you can't reuse the factory vacuum brake booster, so you either need to go hydroboost (what I did) or manual/dual manual master cylinders. Then there's the issue of very small frontal area so keeping the LS cool is difficult. I ended up not only using the largest Ron Davis radiator that would fit but also a gigantic oil cooler AND a secondary radiator from an Audi S4 V8. PLUS a ton of hood vents.
The stock 944 transaxle will hold a basic LS as long as you don't do a launch. The Turbo transaxle is much preferred, as are the larger Turbo brakes. None of those gearboxes are geared properly for the LS, they're all too short and there's no good way to add a 6th gear to get a true overdrive. Unlike the FC/FD/240's you can't run the T56 that mates to the LS.
So, basically, pick any other car than the 944 to put an LS into. You'll thank me later.
The 944 engine bay is actually larger than the 928's and that came with a DOHC v8 (in the later models). BMW hydroboost and manual brakes are both known solutions.
You can use the 968 6-speed, if you really feel the need. The 5th gear swap helps with the revs while crusing on the highway. Again for autocross it isn't critical.
Turbo brakes are nice, but not needed, especially for autocross. There are other alternatives available from the DIY group (Lexus LS430 calipers for example among others).
The cooling is a concern, but then the miata's front end is even smaller and they manage ok with a better radiator solution.
