Vehicle that does it all OR race car/tow vehicle/trailer?

Having been in your spot and having done both, I highly recommend a tow vehicle with a race car. 

Having a do-it-all is nice but if something breaks it sucks. You have to make compromises on things (like storage space, comfort, etc). Your DDing will put extra wear and tear on it, projects need to be done in a quickish manner. Just think if you're working on your do-it-all car and you need a bolt from the autoparts store and you have your car torn apart - gotta call a friend, borrow the significant others, etc. 

I picked up a 2001 Toyota Sequoia for tow/DD duties (i only have an 8 mile commute for work when I am home). It's big, it's comfy, it fits tools, tires, coolers, fans, tents, chairs, and a twin size mattress for sleeping. Tows nicely and runs like a champ. Picked up a cheap trailer to tow my S2000, E36 M3, or Chumpcar to and from events. 

The only downside (and I made a post about this) is that for my longer road trips the E36 M3, S2000, and Sequoia all suck for their own respective reasons for a long term trip (reliability, space/comfort, and gas mileage in order)  which is why one of these is going bye bye and getting replaced with a relatively new DD. 

In reply to frenchyd :

That is a good story, but I don’t think running a brand-new Toyota in an HPDE setting is comparable to W2W racing in an MG TD. 

In reply to LanEvo :

The principle is the same.  Unexpected stuff happens during racing.  Doesn’t matter if it’s wheel to wheel, against a clock or whatever. 

Daily driving isn’t the same as pushing to the limits.  

After much contemplation on this topic, I decided to keep my daily driver of eight, now nine years. I bought a Miata for Autocross, replaced it with a second one this year.

My 04 Ralliart wagon has been too reliable and too fun a commuter for me to replace. I don't get rid of cars unless I have to, and it wasn't ever going to be competitive in HS.

I haven't bought a trailer yet, but now that I have the Miata I want, it's going to happen. I already have a truck.

Floating Doc said:

After much contemplation on this topic, I decided to keep my daily driver of eight, now nine years. I bought a Miata for Autocross, replaced it with a second one this year.

My 04 Ralliart wagon has been too reliable and too fun a commuter for me to replace. I don't get rid of cars unless I have to, and it wasn't ever going to be competitive in HS.

I haven't bought a trailer yet, but now that I have the Miata I want, it's going to happen. I already have a truck.

You are seriously tempting me into tracking my E34 wagon. Awesome stuff. Wagons rule!

In reply to frenchyd :

I hear what you’re saying. But I have to insist (as someone who ran HPDE for 15-20 years before getting into actual racing) that HPDE is nothing like as risky or hard on the car as W2W racing.

In an HPDE setting, you’re not running “ten tenths,” passing is tightly controlled, and most folks are there in street cars. Plus (at least with the clubs I run with), if you do something bone-headed and damage someone else’s car, there’s an expectation that you’ll take responsibility. It’s not a rule that can be enforced, but there’s a sort of gentleman’s agreement.

Anyway, a modern car on  street tires will have virtually zero chance of needing a flatbed in that setting. If something crazy does happen, AAA will get you home. 

I hear 'ya.  I've had many of the same deliberations about daily-driver deliberations.  The fact I drive 100 miles/day plays a big role in the equation, a tow rig was never an option. 

Auto-x events are a minimum of 50 minutes each way for me, with most being a little further...but still within my 100-mile AAA covered tow range.  My M42 E30 spins at about 4k rpm at highway speeds.  My tires are a bit shorter than they should be, so that should improve a little once I put the right sized rubber on there.  The M42 just doesn't feel as relaxed or smooth as the straight-6.  I routinely did 6+hour drives in my last E30. even with 4.10 LSD it was like butter at 75mph.  

I took my son to sit in an FR-S/BRZ/86.  He was 7 or so at the time...so too small to sit in the front seat.  The rear seat access was difficult, at best.  He also couldn't see out the rear side window.  The rear seat also looked pretty uncomfortable.   Overall, not a good choice for riding with the kiddo in the back so we checked it off the list, and worse than my daily driver Civic Si (EP3) at the time.  Now that he's big enough for the front seat, it would make a lot more sense.  Noise can also be a factor for kids liking/not liking cars.  Mine thinks the E30 is too noisy...and it's running a cat and resonator.  

We test drove a new V6 mustang and FoST in the process of finding my current car.  The mustang drove great, but the gas mileage was pretty bad for a V6 and the seating position killed my back.  It was plenty fast and made better sounds than the 4cyl turbo version.  The FoST was just underwhelming.  Maybe the higher level package with better seats would have sold me on it.  I also drove an FiST on an auto-x course when they launched...this was great, but didn't have enough room for road-trip duty.

I ultimately bought a VW Alltrack wagon.  30mpg for my commute, can easily fit two mountain bikes or surfboards in the back, and simple roof rack integration.  It's also a manual, which is pretty rare.  GolfR suspension and APR tuning are common mods.  I suppose it's nice to know it's an option if I'm not able to have my "fun" car.

I'd be concerned about the expense of maintaining and repairng a modern car that's tracked regularly.  Especially in the event of a catastrophic failure.

As far as other options go...I've spent some time in an Rx8 on an auto-x course.  I'd have bought one if it weren't for the fuel mileage and reliability reputation.  I still might eventually get one if I ever part with my E30.

Cadillac reliability scares me.  CTS-V and ATS may be good...but there are at least a few threads on GRM about all the failure points in modern Cadillacs.

I'd consider adding 128i/135i...but repairs can be pricey.

There are plenty of known failure points in different subarus.  I was impressed with the stock suspension in the blob-eye STIs.

I think an E36 BMW is a good compromise if you're doing longer drives and may have kids in the car.  They're a bit more modern and comfortable...they're also very cheap.  THe E36M3 and E46M3 have got to be at the bottom of their depreciation curves.  

 I had a similar attitude about RWD only for a track car until I went for a ride-along run in a modded 400hp GTI.  Thing was ridiculously fast.  I wouldn't rule-out FWD all together.

LanEvo said:

I hear what you’re saying. But I have to insist (as someone who ran HPDE for 15-20 years before getting into actual racing) that HPDE is nothing like as risky or hard on the car as W2W racing.

I agree.  I've "broken" my turbo Miata at probably 20-ish track days in the last decade, and in all but a couple of those events I could have limped it home if I'd really needed to.  "Broken" means the track day is over, but that rarely breaks it to the point of being undrivable.  The worst were a blown head gasket (at least, I thought that's what it was -- the symptoms were weird) and a couple of destroyed transmissions.  The transmissions I probably could have driven it home because it still had gears it would drive in, but I had a trailer so I didn't need to test it.

Hoondavan said:

I think an E36 BMW is a good compromise if you're doing longer drives and may have kids in the car.  They're a bit more modern and comfortable...they're also very cheap.  THe E36M3 and E46M3 have got to be at the bottom of their depreciation curves.  

The e36 M3 is a cool car and they are cheap, but look a little dated in my opinion, also they are pretty old at this point and would likely need some significant freshening to be reliable for daily use.  That said, if you shop enough you might find one with everything done...

The e46 M3 is considered by many to be the best M3 ever, and as such decently clean examples now routinely sell for more than a similar mileage/condition e90-e92 M3's.  It's a bucket list car for me, but I can't justify it over the e92 when considering costs...

Speaking of e9x series, how about a nice 335i for ~10k, an M3 for 20-25k, or even a 335is somwhere in the middle?  There is an absolutely beautiful 335is in Bring a Trailer right now with 2 days left and 16k current bid...

LanEvo said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I hear what you’re saying. But I have to insist (as someone who ran HPDE for 15-20 years before getting into actual racing) that HPDE is nothing like as risky or hard on the car as W2W racing.

In an HPDE setting, you’re not running “ten tenths,” passing is tightly controlled, and most folks are there in street cars. Plus (at least with the clubs I run with), if you do something bone-headed and damage someone else’s car, there’s an expectation that you’ll take responsibility. It’s not a rule that can be enforced, but there’s a sort of gentleman’s agreement.

Anyway, a modern car on  street tires will have virtually zero chance of needing a flatbed in that setting. If something crazy does happen, AAA will get you home. 

Now we may be discussing changing deck chair arrangements on the Titanic here, because in 40 plus years of wheel to wheel racing on only two occasions was the car at the end of the race unable to “drive” home. ( if it had been legal)  

By the way I have street driven pure race cars on the public roads.  In 1984 & 1986 Speedweeks in the Bahamas.  Guests at the beach front Hotel I stayed at were woken up  by my unmuffled with dual megaphone’s exhaust system.  As I started  and warmed up the race car before driving off to the race track a few miles away.  Oh and every year at Elkhart Lake the race cars drive into town for the car show.  

The first I mentioned, and the second was early in the development of the Black Jack Special. When oil pressure at the end of the race indicated a pending failure.  It still ran well enough to drive back onto the hauler

One trivial damage to body work  repaired in the pits inside of 10 minutes and the two mechanical issues in over 4 decades of racing.  Sort of makes your case. 

However, I could also have raced without benefit of seatbelt or rollbar in retrospect.  Just like there are reasons for those there are legitimate reasons to trailer. 

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Plus a do it all car is in trouble if any one of a thousand little things happen at the event. Blow a radiator hose, fan belt. Brake line, u joint  etc. etc etc. 

With a tow vehicle there you jump in that,  run to the parts store, grab what you need, and you are back quickly. 

Not to mention the complexity of dealing with a street car.  Air conditioning makes access to things harder. As does HVAC systems, and other accessories, features not used on race cars. 

Then there is the weight and performance robbing aspects of all that stuff plus sound deadening, undercoating,  luxury, entertainment systems etc etc etc. 

 Lap times for a Corvette and a stock Pinto powered  Formula Ford are about the same.   But the Corvette  will cost nearly 10 times as much to race.  Not to mention you can store the tow vehicle, trailer, & race car  in a 1&1/2 car garage or even if clever, in a one car garage. 

Doesn't this depend on budget? And time? If you've got lots of both, obviously you buy a nice trailer, tow vehicle and whatever car you want to run.

If you've got nothing, you bring your DD. 

Everything else is somewhere in between. I've tried to do the trailer/track car on the cheap and it's a lot of time to maintain the extra tow vehicle and it's so old that it breaks down frequently. Otoh it's safer to be on track in my prepped car and I'd never go back to running a street car. YMMV!

In reply to Dave M :

To a degree. I raced on a very tiny budget.  My tow vehicle was my daily driver, my race cars I never paid more than $300 for. I built my own trailer from scrap metal and spare parts.  I scrounged for parts and often built engines / transmissions from 2-3 junk motors.  

I slept in the daily driver at the race track and my highest expense was always the entry fee even back when entry fees were $60. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I guess I wasn't clear - I meant your time budget as well as your monetary one. Your time budget was obviously big, not to mention that you have the skills to build everything yourself and access to the tools and space to do so!

Also, as you know better than me, no matter what you do, sometimes running your car at the track will cost you a lot of money or time. I was at the NASA weekend at VIR last weekend and on Sunday morning my old truck decided to start puking coolant on the paddock from what appeared to be the water pump.

Here I am trying to do it on the cheap and now I'm faced with a conundrum: miss my track time to fix the truck, or pay up to have the track mechanic unload the parts cannon at the truck. I paid the man, because I didn't want to miss VIR and I had already saved money by sleeping in my truck. But I could have instead spent my day fixing the truck myself. The track is expensive one way or another!!

In reply to frenchyd :

Sounds like we are in agreement that you’re unlikely to need a tow home even when racing ... let alone HPDE in a new street car!

BTW, I still drive my car to race weekends. It’s an ‘87 Mercedes 190E Cosworth, so fairly reliable as far as race cars go. It’s a little annoying driving a stripped/caged car on coilovers without HVAC or sound deadening. But it’s fun in its own way. 

Been doing this since 2014. In that time, an exhaust fell off at Calabogie, a hillbilly backed his truck into me on the drive to Mosport, and a yahoo in a Spec E46 sideswiped me at the PVGP (broke off 4 of 5 studs on my passenger front ... but the wheel stayed on!). Then I lost 3rd and 4th gear on the trans that same weekend.

Somehow, I always managed to drive home LOL. But I feel like my luck may be running out: I’ve been evening a new Ford Ranger crew-cab lately. 

For autocross with an occasional track day peppered in I can't see any reason why a single car wouldn't suffice especially something fairly modern like a twin or moostang.

Living in MI there are precious few things I could do to a car that would prevent me being able to drive it to a track day (whether I can live with those modifications daily is a different story) if you are in a similar state I'd think moving to 1 car makes even more sense in your case.

For me the tow rig/trailer is more about convenience than anything else. I spent many years driving to auto-x/track days with my tire trailer and spare wheels behind my fun car, and a AAA membership with free 150 mile towing in my wallet. Once I started doing more events outside my home state than in it made sense to have a tow setup so that a freak incident on track Sunday doesn't result in me missing work on Monday. 

If the tow rig is causing more inconvenience to your budget and general life then it makes sense to switch to a more mild modern car and just have 1 vehicle to cause headaches rather than 2+trailer. At least IMO.

This was a very timely thread because I've found myself considering the same thing more and more frequently lately.

klodkrawler05 said:

For autocross with an occasional track day peppered in I can't see any reason why a single car wouldn't suffice especially something fairly modern like a twin or moostang.

Yesterday, I brought home a transfer case I scored off CL for our Bronco.

Today, I'm making a dump run after the spring cleaning in the shed.

Tomorrow, I'm planning to pick up a 6'x3' sheet of 1/4" steel for my bench top.

All of these would be difficult, if not impossible in a vehicle that I would have any interest in tracking.  It's not just about towing to/from the track in case the car breaks... and any vehicle with any legitimate track pretentions is going to be fairly useless for utilitarian tasks.  That doesn't mean you can't transport your new engine in a Miata, it's just not all that practical.

During my very limited experience doing HPDE (~25 days) I've seen enough cars blow up.  A Vette blew an engine in front of me going into a fast corner (that was fun...), a twin blew a hole in the block, etc.  E36 M3 happens.  

Having said that, is it worth the risk vs. getting a tow set up?  Not sure.  For one I can't have them because I have no room.  And even if I do have the room, I may just risk it because outside of an engine/transmission blowing up everything can probably be fixed relatively quickly to get home (quickly as in a day to get parts, etc.).  And if it's totaled... well, I guess it's time to get a ride from someone else or take a bus/train/flight home... 

In reply to LanEvo :

Yes unlikely but possible.  That alone was sufficient for me to start towing.  My first Jaguar Race car way back in 1969 was pulled by a cheap used pickup truck and home made trailer.  The pickup served as my daily driver and parts chaser. 

 On the other hand, anything that’s remotely fun at an autocross, track day, or wheel to wheel will be pretty miserable to live with.  Both at the track and life in general.  

Softly sprung and race car do not work.  Conversely driving a prepared car around on potholed streets is really brutal ( not to mention unlikely to get you a second date ) Nor can you sleep in a decent autocross/ HODE/ track car.  

As far as hauling home a spare engine-gearbox differential etc.  you’re going to have to have it delivered.  

Finally regular insurance is invalid at any speed event, wheel to wheel or not. However the payments will need to be paid even if you can’t drive it.  

For me the answer always has been a cheap car I can afford to turn into a race car and accept the risks of racing myself.  

Just like I never used my rollbar or seatbelts, I had them just in case.  Same thing with risks of loss.  No I didn’t have any but if I did, the money was already spent and hopefully I could buy replacement whatever and be back racing soon.  Not something that could be used  dealing with late model car destroyed/damaged at an event. 

Dave M said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I guess I wasn't clear - I meant your time budget as well as your monetary one. Your time budget was obviously big, not to mention that you have the skills to build everything yourself and access to the tools and space to do so!

Also, as you know better than me, no matter what you do, sometimes running your car at the track will cost you a lot of money or time. I was at the NASA weekend at VIR last weekend and on Sunday morning my old truck decided to start puking coolant on the paddock from what appeared to be the water pump.

Here I am trying to do it on the cheap and now I'm faced with a conundrum: miss my track time to fix the truck, or pay up to have the track mechanic unload the parts cannon at the truck. I paid the man, because I didn't want to miss VIR and I had already saved money by sleeping in my truck. But I could have instead spent my day fixing the truck myself. The track is expensive one way or another!!

I feel your pain.  At 70+  I don’t have the reasonable expectation of additional income to come so stuff like that is a real set back.  

However my time budget always has been at the expense of other recreation or leisure.  More nights than I’d ever care to keep track of were spent bleary eyed working on the cars. Often stopping only to go to work, devoid of any sleep.  

As for skills, none of that was easily acquired.  I learned how to weld, paint, do machine work, etc. through watching others and trial and error.  

One bit of really hard won knowledge came from failure and learning to build reliability into a race car by using it on the street.  Open Exhaust, numbers, rollbar, lack of license plates, could all be overlooked if done in a group.  Hot rod, sportscars,  motorcycles, going to an event  as long as we weren’t jerks and kept speed reasonable.  We’d wave  and smile at police and highway patrol. Usually get a thumbs up. Or at least a friendly nod.  

In reply to Rodan :

That is a valid point as well. I recently upgraded tow vehicles from a jeep to a proper truck and having the bed to throw stuff into is really very handy. At the same time, I could and have done  many of those types of tasks with a utility trailer behind a toy car without too much issue. The truck is the easy button, but it's not the only button. 

I figure I only have patience, budget, and enough attention to attend to so many vehicles. A car hauler adds dramatically to budget especially because of the cool factor. I say cool factor because it will probably have to double as a partial daily driver to make it worth having around, and most reliable haulers just don't suit me. Usually what's cool to me ends up in the project department, which circles back to what I'm trying to avoid. Another project. A race car project, a car hauler project, the baja project, the e30 project, and I'm sure the trailer would end up being some form of a project. This used to sound like fun and looks cool, but I'm looking to use my time in the seat and less time tinkering out of necessity.

With that said, I have no illusions that the one car that does it all, will be the best at all those things. I do believe that there are a couple cars that can do most of those things extremely well out of the box compared to the older stuff I'm tinkering with and at a higher level of reliability. Plus a factory warranty is pretty neat.

From personal experience, a stock Twin with a decent driver would walk all over the e30 with heavy prep, and be far more enjoyable for daily stuff. Daily traffic. Dropping the kids off or picking them up from school. If I boil it all down to one insurance payment, gas, tires, oil changes, etc. it will always end up cheaper in the long run realistically. The Mustang is on the heavy side, and has bro stigma, but I did enjoy my 86 GT back in the day until I wanted it to stop. I haven't done much research on what it takes to make an s197 work well, but I don't think it's as good out of the box as I would prefer. It could end up more of a project, but are we talking simple stuff like shocks, tires, brakes, etc. ?

Back to the FWD stuff though, I keep ending at the same conclusion. If I give up the e30, the new car needs to do e30 stuff, and RWD is the answer.

Also, this car is a do everything for me car, the wife will have her car that does everything she needs as well. So it's more of a two cars that do it all scenario.

Street vehicle plus kart and trailer gets my vote..

captainawesome said:

from personal experience, a stock Twin with a decent driver would walk all over the e30 with heavy prep, 

Are you talking Autocross or on track?  On track my experience has been the exact opposite.  Prepped or spec e30's seem to be about 10 full sec/lap faster than a stock twin on a 2.25 mile technical road course... (not trying to contradict you, just my experience)

In reply to cbaclawski :

Both but I should mention I’m talking  about my 4 cylinder m42 not the m20. I wouldn’t have guessed a gap like that though.