Viper @ an autocross

A short while ago I posted about Grassroots Vipers and how we'd gotten a 2001 Viper for about $30k. http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/the-new-grassroots/2673/page1/

You simply can't test the limits to a car like this on the street so we didn't even try. BTW this has become the daily driver for my friend and he regularly posts 20mpg with the car. It doesn't hurt that he very seldom has to put the car on crowded city streets.

We didn't want to do anything to the car until we'd had a chance to either put it on a track or do an autocross. After looking closely at the tires and the date codes we decided the track was out and an autocross was in. The date codes showed these had to have been the original tires and there was quite a bit of dry rot type of cracking on the sidewall and the beginning of the tread plus they were very hard.

We were pretty sure we wouldn't be competitive but we had to see how the balance was and how the car responded so we'd know how to even set an alignment or what size/type of tires to buy.

We chose to run at the local S2000 club since we knew everyone there and they promised not to laugh too loudly at us.

I got the first 4 runs. I began a very tentative 85 second run. My second run was down to 79 and I worked it down to a 77 second run. We switched seats and my friend worked it down from 77 to 75 seconds. We hadn't seen what anyone else was running but felt we were slow, slow, slow.

The biggest issue other than the hard tires was the brakes. We couldn't believe it, but the brakes sucked big time. The ABS didn't work and the fronts locked anytime you had any hard braking which severely limited our style.

The tires gave no warning between grip and no grip. They didn't squeal all day long. One second you had grip and then you noticed you had none. We couldn't get back on the power after a corner until the car was perfectly straight. Interestingly the car never got out of control or seemed a handful. It was a perfect gentleman even when none of the tires were gripping.

Of course the tires were limiting the braking power, but with no ABS it just made it worse.

At lunch we looked at some times and found that we were right in the hunt with other heavy cars at the event. We were .2 slower than a Z06 with Hoosiers and a Mustang GT with Hoosiers and an excellent, excellent driver. Both of them didn't have passengers for their runs. We didn't feel too bad until we looked at the S2000 and the Miata times - they were in the 71 range.

We came back from lunch with the determination to improve or spin trying. My partner went first and he was initially slower than the morning session, but he improved and finally got a 74.04 time. I jumped in and clicked off two 74.4 runs but couldn't get any better even when I dumped him for a solo run.

Interestingly I had brought a young friend to the autocross. This was only his 2nd autocross and it took a lot to finally get him to come. We had to browbeat him into trying it at the previous autocross and while he was slow he improved almost every lap at the first autocross AND LOVED IT! This time we were running opposite him so couldn't ride with him and give instruction and so he was feeling less than stellar about himself so I loaned him my S2000 since I wasn't driving it. He immediately knocked 4 seconds off his time to beat us.

We had actually brought 2 guys in their early 20's to the autocross. The other guy ended up being first in the street tire class. He must have been sandbagging us and had gone to an autocross or 2 before.

The car didn't really disappoint us as it was as easy to drive as the S, just more ponderous to move thru the tight sections. We can't wait to get some fresh rubber on the car and try it again. We're trying to find some RA1s now which we'll use on the street as well as on the track, but they are tough to find in any size, much less Viper size of 275/35 x 18 front and 335/30 x 18 rear. Oh, and no tire in this size could be remotely considered cheap.

The car is at the Dodge dealer to diagnose the ABS problem. I looked under the hood during lunch at the autocross and didn't find an ABS module but the dealer swears it has ABS.

We also had some interesting tire pressure issues. The tires heated up much more than I was used to. We finally ended up with 36 psi in the right front (due to the number of left handers) and 35 in the rest. I've never had a car that didn't require quite a bit more pressure in the fronts than the back.

Thanks for the update. Getting the abs done and then new tires? It seems you've stumbled on a supercar bargain. I played video games that featured this car....

It was, or would have been, a blast to drive. It wasn't a handful in any way. We didn't cone as much as many of the smaller cars did, but then we weren't going as fast as them and we were being much more careful.

With tires and brakes we feel we can get to the same times as the smaller cars on the autocross, but we'd blow them away on the track.

The biggest downside we see so far is the cost of things like rims and tires. You can't easily afford to have a second set for track/autocross day use so you need dual duty tires.

We've bought a 3 piece top which allows you to take the top off and store it in the trunk. The factory top either has to be on for the whole drive or off for the whole drive since it's too big to store in the trunk. In changing weather that can be an issue.

We've also had a shorter shift lever machined as the factory shifter is simply too long. Fortunately the shift rod itself is made to be more like a spacer and fits between the shift knob and the receiver at the console level. This makes it a snap to replace. We couldn't find any aftermarket ones so we have had one made that is 1/2 the length of the factory unit. We pick it up Monday so we'll tell you how that works. It was cheap and it's an easy swap.

carguy123 wrote: Interestingly the car never got out of control or seemed a handful. It was a perfect gentleman even when none of the tires were gripping.

That's what I keep telling people about the Vipers I've test driven, it's surprising how docile the car can be just tooling around. The Viper has this big bad reputation because of people that can't drive, it's a real shame. Wait, maybe that's a good thing. It will help keep prices down if I do decide to finally buy one.

from what I remember, Vipers have never had ABS. they were meant as a spiritual successor to the Cobra, and as such were no frills machinery.

Yes, I thought Vipers were built without ABS.

I would look at the sccaforums in the parts fs section for used tires. These aren't the exact size for fronts, but they may be close enough and they are cheap http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/326291.aspx Lots of big tires get sold with life left in them because the people who need big tires, have expensive cars and lots of $$$

Some have had ABS. None of the early ones did, I am just not sure what year models added it.

As I said, I couldn't find the ABS module and the brake line routing seemed to indicate no ABS but the Dodge dealer swears it does. It wouldn't surprise me to find that it doesn't.

The worst habit the car exhibited was that it very abruptly "came back" from the brake lock up and you dern well better have the wheels pointed in the direction you wanted to go cause that's the direction it was going. Which simply meant that when you felt it go there was no reason to dial in any more lock.

I am sure that was all tire.

Has anyone ever heard of these people? They seem to have a decent price on the RA1s. http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/track-safety/toyo/ra1-unshaved

But so far, once again I'm hearing the RA1 has been discontinued and yet Keith (UltraDork) has been swearing Toyo tells him they haven't. I'm hoping he's right.

Wow. I just re-read your other thread, I never realized they were about the same size as an S2K.

And I've seen a Viper at an autocross, but it was at FedEx Field at a National Tour event, and it had Hoosiers the size of steam rollers on it. I can imagine they would not do very well on a course designed by a bunch of S2K owners.

It's amazing how small they are and yet how big the cockpit feels. Dodge did a good job of designing to intimidate.

Just talked to Keith and he sent me to onlinetires.com for the RA1a. HMS motorsport can't get the RA1s and Online tires' 877# is apparently screwed up so I can't reach them to talk to anyone. Why is nothing ever easy?

carguy123 wrote: Why is nothing ever easy?

Because if it was everyone would do it.

Are you guys going to track the car? If so, do Trackdaze events at VIR and I'll see you there. Just don't monster truck over me on the straights. I'll be in a Miata.

That Viper was made for VIR full-course events.

He's got some Viper sized RA1s for sale. I got a set from him (well, not Viper-size, but MR2 size) and I would definitely do business with him again.

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/leegrx7

Brotus7 wrote: He's got some Viper sized RA1s for sale. I got a set from him (well, not Viper-size, but MR2 size) and I would definitely do business with him again. http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/leegrx7

Now that's a cool site.

I got that the RA1s were discontinued from 3 sources, one of them the Toyo warehouse here in Texas. So apparently they are, but several places have some stocks.

I did find a set. $2,000 later and I'm saying not much grassroots here in tires. Discount Tire matched onlinetires.com prices.

Xcerer8x yes we will be doing track days, but on dedicated tires and much closer to home like Motorsports Ranch or Glen Eagles. Having been a Miata in the sights of the Vipers I hope we'll be more gentlemanly about sucking your doors off down the straights.

I saw my first autocrossing Viper this weekend while I was out trying to keep my tires underneath me in the Cobra (15k+ miles on ecsta ASXs does not a grippy tire make).

What I noticed, though this doesn't quite match your description, is that there was no drifting that car. It was either under full grip, or it was spinning out. That may have been the driver, though.

Wow! We couldn't have spun that car without a LOT of pedal assistance. I wonder what was the difference?

there was a guy form atlanta IIRC that has a viper 500sc, that he autocrosses, and when he came to KYR a few years back, he set fast ffendered time of the day, the car was fullly prepped, hoosiers, suspsnsion and a driver who knoew the car and knew how to use it, they have potential, but few are really put to the test

I would be curious to see what it is like to drive one, becasue from what i have seen of people driving them hard it looks like they dont handle well at all, but that may very well not be the cars fault.

The car drives very easy and smooth. If it's not handling well it's the driver.

Keep in mind there is a fear factor until you get used to it. You feel that much horsepower just HAS TO BE a handful to drive so you approach everything more carefully. When you do get confident enough to push the go pedal more you tend to do it in spurts at first. These spurts will finally get longer until you can blend them together (I think). I am to the long spurt stage, just not quite blended spurts yet.

Between an older Corvette and this i cant see a better $/street car/track car ratio (kit cars dont count). And the depreciation rate is great. Once Im done school ill take the civic off of track duty completely and make one of these a disgustingly fast and loud track car. To embarass the german snobs, Ive taken a serious liking to american supercars lately.

rwdsport wrote: Between an older Corvette and this i cant see a better $/street car/track car ratio (kit cars dont count).

I'd agree except for one minor detail - Running Costs.

Large cars like that eat up tires, brakes, and fuel. If you have the dosh then get on with it! I'll smile and clap when you go by and bend my rollbar forward wishing I could afford the bill!

I found out what's been the issue with the RA1s, they've changed the tread pattern and have been retooling.

What a difference a day makes! We got the RA1s on the Viper and it's a completely different animal now.

It stops on a dime instead of sliding thru the cones on the autocross course or the red lights.

It almost jumps out of your hands it will turn so fast now.

We've found the car was amazingly docile considering it had no traction. That tells us the chassis has no bad traits. Now you can put the power down miles earlier coming out of the corner. It is very much at home on an autocross course now. We beat the S2000s and the Miatas this time.

Right now the car is in Jacksonville Florida. Cheap gas hollered road trip so my buddy took off. I will fly to Floriday and meet him in Miami.

Between Dallas and Tallahasse he averaged 22 mpg with the cruise control set at 75 mph- that's only 1,400 rpms. He took a stint with cruise set at 85 mph, which is 1,600 rpms and still got 20 mpg.

It gets as much attention if not more than the Shelby Cobra we just sold plus is more comfortable and easier to drive. So far we're not finding any downsides except the price of things like rims and tires.

I drive a Hyundai Accent and I can't afford a road trip. You guys suck. J/K Enjoy the car! I know I would be.

carguy123 wrote: I found out what's been the issue with the RA1s, they've changed the tread pattern and have been retooling. What a difference a day makes! We got the RA1s on the Viper and it's a completely different animal now. It stops on a dime instead of sliding thru the cones on the autocross course or the red lights. It almost jumps out of your hands it will turn so fast now. We've found the car was amazingly docile considering it had no traction. That tells us the chassis has no bad traits. Now you can put the power down miles earlier coming out of the corner. It is very much at home on an autocross course now. We beat the S2000s and the Miatas this time. Right now the car is in Jacksonville Florida. Cheap gas hollered road trip so my buddy took off. I will fly to Floriday and meet him in Miami. Between Dallas and Tallahasse he averaged 22 mpg with the cruise control set at 75 mph- that's only 1,400 rpms. He took a stint with cruise set at 85 mph, which is 1,600 rpms and still got 20 mpg. It gets as much attention if not more than the Shelby Cobra we just sold plus is more comfortable and easier to drive. So far we're not finding any downsides except the price of things like rims and tires.

Old tires on these cars make them nearly undriveable - as you discovered - the chassis is tuned to respond to good rubber. Be carefull you do not flatspot the new tires since almost no Viper has factory ABS.

I forgot to mention that this one does. It seems they began adding ABS in 2001.