Tom Suddard said:My comment "good" was slightly in jest, and I am sad to see fewer manual transmissions in the world, but having driven and raced with both transmissions in GTIs, the DSG is the better tool for the job.
But what is that job? Joy or lap time?
I don't need fast shifts in a road car and so few people are going to put their car on track that it's also kind of a moot point.
Tom1200 said:Tom Suddard said:My comment "good" was slightly in jest, and I am sad to see fewer manual transmissions in the world, but having driven and raced with both transmissions in GTIs, the DSG is the better tool for the job.
But what is that job? Joy or lap time?
I don't need lighting fast shifts in a road car and so few people are going to put their car on track that it's also kind of a moot point.
I also don't like the fact that manuals are going away, but at the same time there's another factor: ease of use. Some people can't drive/won't drive manual cars because it takes more effort. For most people, on their daily commute, the "job" is to just get from Point A to Point B with the least resistance.
Tom1200 said:Tom Suddard said:Fine, I'll say it....
Good. The DSG cars are faster, stronger and more reliable. This just means finding your next project car will be easier, as the used market won't be littered with manual cars.
Manuals are about the experience.
Most people are buying an enthusiast car for the joy it brings.
This makes me laugh. Manuals were preferred by enthusiasts because they were in top race cars, and automatics were slushboxes in big sloppy sedans. Manuals were faster, they got better fuel mileage, so enthusiasts said they were better, and they were. This was the position for DECADES.
Suddenly it has nothing to do with being faster, nothing to do with getting better fuel mileage, and nothing to do with being in top race cars (since none of that is true anymore). NOW it's about some ephemeral "experience." Funny thing about that is that people who are good at it, say "it's easy, and muscle memory, and can be done easily without even thinking about it." If you're not even thinking about it most of the time, how is that an "experience?" Or are you driving around still saying "look at that, I shifted! Oh look, I did it again!" on every single shift?
If the manual trans is all that there is about driving that makes it good, then slap a stick shift and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and shift to your hearts content. You'll have the "experience" and no cost of a car or fuel or insurance or danger of crashing...
All me and my wife's cars are manual except my one truck. We prefer manual, find it makes it more fun drive. Neither of us engage in motorsports except as spectators.
I've owned quite a few automatics out of the 80 or so cars I've owned and always thought that adding a 3rd pedal would make them better.
I've owned a dozen VW's from air cooled to my current mk7 GTI. I don't see myself owning a newer one since the manual is gone.
It's personal choice just like anything else.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:I also don't like the fact that manuals are going away, but at the same time there's another factor: ease of use. Some people can't drive/won't drive manual cars because it takes more effort. For most people, on their daily commute, the "job" is to just get from Point A to Point B with the least resistance.
Absolutely. But why would those people buy an enthusiast vehicle like a GTI?
They killed it for 2 grams? Hmm, that seems like they decided that was the reason they decided they'd use instead of saving a bunch of money by only making one configuration.
Also, it was 50% of those particular car sales for them, which is significant. Pretty soon the only MT you're going to be able to buy in new cars will be from Porsche.
Diehard clutch user here, but c'mon... the future is now. I know there's been talk of a EV with a clutch but both ICE cars and manual gearbox are soon to go the way of vinyl records - quaint relics for hobbyists. And Volkswagen is fully committed to that future as their penance for dieselgate.
docwyte said:They killed it for 2 grams? Hmm, that seems like they decided that was the reason they decided they'd use instead of saving a bunch of money by only making one configuration.
Also, it was 50% of those particular car sales for them, which is significant. Pretty soon the only MT you're going to be able to buy in new cars will be from Porsche.
50% of the US sales for GTIs last year. Let's look at how significant that is. They sold just under 8000 GTIs in the US last year. Total. 6000 the year before that. So it's not really a significant number of vehicles for them. And the US is where the most manuals were sold. So even worldwide, the total number of manual vehicles was small. With the coming of European electrification, spending money to make the transmission meet Euro emissions for almost no sales volume would definitely be a no-go.
8000 GTI sold in US out of 8 Million vehicles produced by VW in 2022.
bludroptop said:Diehard clutch user here, but c'mon... the future is now. I know there's been talk of a EV with a clutch but both ICE cars and manual gearbox are soon to go the way of vinyl records - quaint relics for hobbyists. And Volkswagen is fully committed to that future as their penance for dieselgate.
No need for a clutch on an EV. Clutches (transmissions in general) are there because ICE needs to have progressive gear ratios in order to keep the engine in it's power band to accelerate. AND it need the ability to declutch from the drivetrain to come to a stop and not stall. And then slip so it doesn't stall when taking off from a stop. An electric motor needs none of that and would actually be a hindrance to it working. An electric motor makes max torque at zero rpm, doesn't "idle" at all when stopped, needs no slippage to start moving again, and has a flat powerband almost all the way to it's max rpm. It has instant throttle response at all points, with no waiting for a transmission to shift, a turbo to spool or to rev up into the powerband. Even my lowly Bolt with it's 200 hp/266 lb ft and a one speed "gearbox" will accelerate to well over any speed limit in the land pretty quickly.
Chris_V said:No need for a clutch on an EV.
I don't think that was the point he was trying to make - Toyota is simulating a manual transmission on their new EV. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44211128/toyota-prototype-ev-sports-car-manual-transmission/
And as someone who is both looking for an electric car and bemoaning the passage of the three-pedal transmission...that one is a bridge too far. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
I'm with Tom on this one. The DCT in the GTI is the better option.
When we bought our GTI, the fact it had a DCT was one of the reasons it made it the winner and final choice.
Chris_V said:This makes me laugh. Manuals were preferred by enthusiasts because they were in top race cars, and automatics were slushboxes in big sloppy sedans. Manuals were faster, they got better fuel mileage, so enthusiasts said they were better, and they were. This was the position for DECADES.
Suddenly it has nothing to do with being faster, nothing to do with getting better fuel mileage, and nothing to do with being in top race cars (since none of that is true anymore). NOW it's about some ephemeral "experience." Funny thing about that is that people who are good at it, say "it's easy, and muscle memory, and can be done easily without even thinking about it." If you're not even thinking about it most of the time, how is that an "experience?" Or are you driving around still saying "look at that, I shifted! Oh look, I did it again!" on every single shift?
If the manual trans is all that there is about driving that makes it good, then slap a stick shift and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and shift to your hearts content. You'll have the "experience" and no cost of a car or fuel or insurance or danger of crashing...
Why go to a concert when you can just stay home and listen to the same songs in better quality for less money? Why go to a high-end restaurant when fast food will make you just as full? Hell, why drive at all when you can take a bus or an Uber? The experience of doing something does matter. The experience of running through the gears, balancing the clutch and throttle, nailing a downshift, feeling the car respond to your inputs, that's all part of the experience of driving. It's rewarding and fun. No, manuals are not "better" anymore, and haven't been for some time. But that's not the point.
And I'm not saying that automatics can't be fun, they absolutely can, especially modern ones. But it's still a different experience than a manual.
And anyway, it's all about choice. If you think manuals are dumb, so be it. But not everyone does, and those of us who do like them have just lost another choice. And that sucks.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:Chris_V said:This makes me laugh. Manuals were preferred by enthusiasts because they were in top race cars, and automatics were slushboxes in big sloppy sedans. Manuals were faster, they got better fuel mileage, so enthusiasts said they were better, and they were. This was the position for DECADES.
Suddenly it has nothing to do with being faster, nothing to do with getting better fuel mileage, and nothing to do with being in top race cars (since none of that is true anymore). NOW it's about some ephemeral "experience." Funny thing about that is that people who are good at it, say "it's easy, and muscle memory, and can be done easily without even thinking about it." If you're not even thinking about it most of the time, how is that an "experience?" Or are you driving around still saying "look at that, I shifted! Oh look, I did it again!" on every single shift?
If the manual trans is all that there is about driving that makes it good, then slap a stick shift and a clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and shift to your hearts content. You'll have the "experience" and no cost of a car or fuel or insurance or danger of crashing...
Why go to a concert when you can just stay home and listen to the same songs in better quality for less money? Why go to a high-end restaurant when fast food will make you just as full? Hell, why drive at all when you can take a bus or an Uber? The experience of doing something does matter. The experience of running through the gears, balancing the clutch and throttle, nailing a downshift, feeling the car respond to your inputs, that's all part of the experience of driving. It's rewarding and fun. No, manuals are not "better" anymore, and haven't been for some time. But that's not the point.
Actually it IS the point. It's a only lately that "the experience" is the reason used by manual fans to prefer them. For most of the last century, manuals WERE the better choice in performance, fuel mileage, racing, reliability etc. There was factual, objective reasons to prefer them. But now, in order for some self proclaimed enthusiasts to feel superior to everybody else, they have to make up some NEW reason for them to be "better." It's almost worse than audiophiles and their $2000 cables, or special $1000 wood isolation spacers or whatever the latest money grab item is.
And anyway, it's all about choice. If you think manuals are dumb, so be it. But not everyone does, and those of us who do like them have just lost another choice. And that sucks.
I never said manuals were dumb or that I preferred automatics. I implied that enthusiasts using this as the reason to feel superior were dumb. Which is exactly what the "saving the manuals" movement comes down to every single time. "Millennial anti-theft device" is exactly that: crowing about your superiority of another person because you wiggle your left foot while driving a bit more often...
Enthusiasts who liked hand cranking their cars to start them lost that choice decades ago. Does that suck? I mean, objectively electric starters were much better. But you lose that "experience" of manually engaging with your car to start it... And how about steering wheel mounted spark advance and retard dials? You had to manually engage with the engine timing in order to start the car then dial it to a different setting to run. AND you had to work a manual choke at the same time. You were WAY more connected to the mechanicals of the car with that sort of a system. Really improved the "experience" of driving, right? Such a sad loss.
In reply to Chris_V :
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, but I will say that I have never once said that driving a manual makes me or anyone else superior. It's just an aspect of driving that I enjoy.
At this point, the justification being using to advocate for manual transmissions is fundamentally the same as the justification that's used for pumping engine noise through the speakers and CVT/EV 'shifting' effects. Both do little more than attempt to make the sensory experience more nostalgic, yet we praise one and pan the other. 
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Chris_V :
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, but I will say that I have never once said that driving a manual makes me or anyone else superior. It's just an aspect of driving that I enjoy.
Its probably best you do agree to disagree, he's been in these auto/manual debates for ages over on The Car Lounge that I just gloss over those threads now because he's the one constantly posting in those threads saying the same things over and over
I do think VW could have made their manuals more engaging, less rubbery with better shift linkage components anlong spec'ing out a better clutch and it always felt they half assed the experience. The K seriees transmission in my dad's 2005 accord had better feel and shorter throw than the one on my mk6 GTI. Had to get something like a dieselgeek short shifter to feel happy about it.
aw614 said:I do think VW could have made their manuals more engaging, less rubbery with better shift linkage components anlong spec'ing out a better clutch and it always felt they half assed the experience.
This is another reason what the DSG is better in the VWs. The manuals they had weren't awful, but they weren't in the same class as a Miata manual transmission, either.
In reply to Chris_V :
I don't think we manual fans are saying it's a better experiance period; we find it a better experiance.
Case in point I was talking to a fellow PCA instructer after driving his new 911; I told him it was amazing and did everything perfectly............and I now understood why he races a 944.
I race vintage cars becuase they slide around alot. I prefer that experiance; sure a modern Camry will turn faster lap times but it's not the same for me.
Tom1200 said:I race vintage cars becuase they slide around alot. I prefer that experiance; sure a modern Camry will turn faster lap times but it's not the same for me.
Side note: you can take a modern car out to a Rallycross for the same effect, though the seat time isn't usually the same.
Shrug, it is what it is. I grew up and leaned to drive in the UK in the 80's. Back then the 'average' family car was something like an Ford Econobox, with a 1.3 or 1.6L engine with 60-90hp. 100hp was big power and high insurance, especially if you were under 25. That meant that the autos of the day, being old three speed non electronically controlled sloppy torque convertors were horrible. They made the vehicles worse in every way to live with and absolutely destroyed both the performance and fuel economy. As a teen the only reason I could see to have an automatic was if you lacked the requisite limbs to operate the clutch/gear leaver, they were that bad. But then progress happened. Cars got more power and more torque, electronic control for the transw, electronic T/C lock up, and things got much much better. Moving here and driving a C4 Corvette with a 4 speed electronically controlled auto made me realize that an auto can not just be as good as a manual, but it made the Corvette a better, nicer vehicle to drive, than the awful Doug Nash 4+3 manual. Today I wouldn't by a manual GTI if the DSG was available, but not because I'm lazy, but because A) it's better in every way, and B) While rowing your own gears is fun in it's way, most of my driving (time, not necessarily miles) is still commuting with stop/go, and traffic lights. The inconvenience and annoyance of a manual, even a good one, is far greater than any 'loss' of fun I may have driving quickly on a fun road. And honestly, I don't think it would be less fun, just different fun. At this point buying a manual is the driving version of being a hipster 'I drive a manual, but you probably don't know what that is or how to do it', it's become a badge of self masturbatory one-upmanship.
Now someone mentioned that the DSG Golf isn't rated for towing. That's an excellent point and would change my view on going for the DSG. I tow a lot, and I need too. Side rant. My current 2015 V60 is rated to to 3,300lb's. The new plug in hybrid version is rated at 2,000Kg in Europe, but only 2,000lb's here in the states. That instantly rules it out for me, and I'm not buying an SUV.
kb58 said:50%... of a very tiny sub-group of the buying public. Pretty sure that if 50% of the buying public wasnt a bunch of wusses we'd still have them.
FIFY
Before I bought my 6MT R, I test drove a DSG version back to back with the 6MT. It was...nice? It's an automatic transmission. Don't care that it shifts quickly or has paddles. It's still an automatic transmission that has some weird programming for shift points when it's in "D" or "S". I felt like I'd have to have it manual mode all the time to have it do what I wanted it to do and at that point, I'd much prefer the 6MT. So that's what I bought.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:I also don't like the fact that manuals are going away, but at the same time there's another factor: ease of use. Some people can't drive/won't drive manual cars because it takes more effort. For most people, on their daily commute, the "job" is to just get from Point A to Point B with the least resistance.
Absolutely. But why would those people buy an enthusiast vehicle like a GTI?
Hey, I'm in agreement here, but I'm just laying out the justification for it. Also another justification: emissions.
But yeah, manual used to be the cheaper and better choice, but now it isn't. It still doesn't change the fact that I enjoy the control because it makes me feel connected and alive. I don't think I'm superior to anyone else in that sense, it's just what I prefer.
I have two manuals, one automatic and one DCT and I love them all. Each one tend to shine a little more than the others under different conditions. If I had to live with just one it would be the DCT. My experience with them has been so good. Sad to see the manual leaving the GTi though.
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