VW Congressional Hearing Live Now

Ranger50 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: And the EPA is faultless in the whole deal since they do nothing but "rubberstamp" the OEM's findings/testing? Please spare me the drivle. I know once the fix is out and how you have to do or live with this or that, I'm going to be jammed with a craptastic automobile with less perceived value. I'm out.

So VW sells your a car that is not legal, mostly because when tested nobody can tell that it's cheating. Meaning that the EPA nor anyone else knows.

Thus it's EPA's fault. gotcha.

Before condemning the system, you should find out more about it.

edit- BTW, I'm pissed, too. Because VW stole customers from us. And I don't know how many millions were spent trying to match what they were lying about.

One should note that at least VW is admitting fault.

In reply to Ranger50:

Dude, I'm an anti-government, pro-business conservative. VW is totally at fault and the EPA is blameless (other than the fact that they really should have been granted the authority to impose emissions requirements by constitutional amendment, but that's another story).

The EPA cannot test all of the cars. My understanding is that they review the findings, and can witness tests if they need to. That's pretty reasonable. Any supplier of parts to a company is subject to pretty much the same. In other words, Ford buys widgets from XYZ Widgets Inc. They do not perform all of the testing on these products, they simply mandate that the testing be done, and check their work where appropriate.

VW cheated, and (awesomely) admitted it. Fault has been placed. Now there is the question of what they are paying for.

Decreased sales from competitors? Check

Increased pollution? Check

Punitive damages? Check

Health concerns from increased pollution? Check

Decreased value of existing cars bought by consumers? Check

They have a lot of potentials for big dollars, and they deserve to pay like mad.

We got our "We're sorry" letter from VW in the mail today, Michael Horn even "signed" it. They apologize a few different ways and times in the 5-ish paragraphs. I kind of chuckled, SWMBO and I don't really get the anger expressed by so many?

We don't feel cheated, we love our car, and loved the last one, we're 2 time TDI owners now, both have been the "illegal" common rail versions.

Greenness of our car was never a selling factor, I believe that CARB setting standards for the rest of the country is asinine, so there's a part of me that's actually a little bit proud of VW. Yeah, I said it.

We love our car, and intend to keep it just as is, baring any registration-mandated recalls. If I'm forced to recall, there will be "illegal" emissions deleting modifications and tuning done willingly by me, which will probably have even worse NOx emissions than the "illegal" version we're currently driving thanks to VW's engineers.

In reply to bigdaddylee82:

I'm torn. I love rebels and pushers of envelopes. But I also hate cheaters.

The question we each must ask ourselves is... Is VW a rebel or a cheater?

I believe VW cheated THOUSANDS of people in one way or another even if there are some who still love their cars and don't care that they've been up to 40x more polluting than was claimed (and oddly seem happy about it).

So for some reason, I watched the whole hearing- both parts.

The $2000 thing is an incentive to keep customers- not some return money for your VW. That kind of incentive happens all the time, and it's just used to keep customers. Based on some of the news, I doubt this will mean a lot.

Horn threw a few engineers totally under the bus. And one rep totally called him on that- which I totally agree with. At a minimum- it's a software guy, the emissions calibrator, and their supervisors. More like it's quite a few people- software isn't written by one person- so there's a few of them who knew this, and the calibration had to be coordinated with driving the car. And their supervision, and their management. And since it's lasted through 3 different iterations of the engines- well....

On the recall side- it sounds like the states would be responsible to force drivers. They will get to choose how stringent the reply will be. But EPA did say they don't have the authority to force drivers to do it.

Companies like SemTec will make some good money making mobile detection systems.

In reply to bigdaddylee82:

So if your neighbor came by and dumped some oil in your garden to keep the dust down, you would be ok with that?

I just don't understand how people are so proud to pollute. But that's just me.

In reply to alfadriver:

Its a matter of "more or less", not "yes or no". The current requirements will always feel restrictive and wanting to sacrifice some general masses design in favor of increased performance will always be common with hotrodders.

Edit: basically "polluting" more isn't the goal, it's the side effect.

In reply to MrJoshua:

I get the whole hot rodding thing. And racing thing. As do the EPA- since there are autocrossers and drag racers who work there. Still- there are quite a few studies that show that the actual performance losses are pretty small. GRM even did a catalyst study.

but some are happy that VW are intentionally breaking the law- and are proud of their polluting. That's what I don't get.

It's also a matter of breaking laws. As was pointed out in the hearing- the playing field is level for all makers- cheating like that is bad for the rest of the OEMs, as well as the environment.

Apparently VW Headquarters were raided by German authorities...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/german-prosecutors-raid-vw-offices-1444313780

alfadriver wrote: but some are happy that VW are intentionally breaking the law- and are proud of their polluting. That's what I don't get.

Coal-roller mentality "lite"?

Maybe it's a "well, I own one of these cars so rather than show my true feelings, I'll act like think it's great." kind of things?

Kinda like tripping over something and falling on your face then acting like you meant to lay down right there when you notice people saw you fall.

An attempt to save face if you will.

In reply to alfadriver:

I'm sure that Alfa in your avatar has freshest pine scented air coming out its tail pipe.

I can't really write a better response that doesn't sound even more floundery, or inflammatory.

CARB is not the answer for the WHOLE COUNTY, the blanked adoption of one state's standards for the whole nation is, just like I said earlier, asinine.

People are really mad about a free fix that will maybe cost only a handfull of HP? Hell, its looking like you might get a brand new exhaust system out of it. The resale of your car is already hurt, its hurt because a few months ago everyone thought they were clean efficient cars, turns out they were sold lies by VW and EPA, doing what regulators do, exposed the lies and is trying to make the company deliver the product that was promised. So on that front you are mad that someone exposed the lie that you bought into? You are mad at the person who exposed that lie?

As far as ranting against the existence of the EPA, lets consider how they (and other influences like them) have impacted the market over history.

If you go back to the (early) 1970's you will note that cars were getting bigger and bigger and bigger. The fuel crunch in a matter of a few short years had a drastic impact on cars, providing a market drive towards small and more efficient cars. Yeah, this has been mourned as it was the death of the muscle car era, but there was a trade off (I will get to it).

There was also the clean air act. In that era it was becoming apparent that pollution was problematic. Smog was a thing, the numbers were showing a scary increase in respiratory illnesses in city areas. It didnt take much for the impact of automobile emissions to be found as the source of a decent chunk of this problem. Consider that there were a LOT fewer cars on the road in 1970 than there are now and they were able to cause these kinds of problems in areas. Consider that these trouble areas were an indicator, an early warning sign. Think what we would be breathing if you take the polution level of those cars and then expand it to cover the number of cars on the road today. The pocketed problems would be widespread and the trouble pockets would be almost uninhabitable.

There were some problems as suddenly drivetrains needed to be a LOT more fuel efficient and they needed to start addressing the smog (emissions) issue. Engines got smaller, exhausts more restrictive. They didnt have the technology we do now. Performance SUFFERED. Yeah, it sucks that it had to suffer, but it was better to suffer and start getting things fixed than to ignore it.

The tradeoff: we needed improvements in the technology, these improvements and developements take time. In a capitalistic system, there also has to be a reason for the investment. Today we can build an 800hp Dodge Hellcat that complies with emissions standards that are much tougher than they faced then and can deliver 22mpg on the highway. Hell, a 426 hemi powered 1970 charger could only give 11mpg and 425hp while practically barfing pollution.

Massive improvements in engine management came about.

Fuel Injection: Everyone thought it would be the death of performance, go back in time and explain megasquirt and their heads would explode!

Forced induction! All the power of a much larger engine with the efficiency of the smaller engine in cruising state.

Cars got SMALLER: Compare a car from 1970 to 1980, they shrank! We actually see it as an improvement here. Smaller, lighter cars just perform better.

And so we turn to the current era. Global warming... yeah, the argument still exists. Thing is this, the population and the number of cars on the road is not going down. We have just gotten through another fuel crunch. Just a few years ago gas was almost double the price it is now. Technology had progressed to allow cars to meet the standards and begin to bloat. 1990-2000 cars got bigger. 2000-2010, bigger still. The dawn of the SUV, how many people do you see daily driving a monster SUV? It isnt just a green thing. If we cannot use oil more efficiently we are vulnerable to getting caught with our pants down. The oil wont hold out forever and the technology will have to be developed. Would you rather pay for that development a little over a long time or much more suddenly for a poorer solution that didnt have as much time to be thought out. We (as a society) need to wean off of oil, it wont last forever. Are electrics the answer? Biofuels? Fuel Cells? These are the questions that are being figured out as a result of this drive you are resisting.

Does the drive need the brakes pumped occasionally? Sure, yeah, every drive does. But I dont think you can argue that the drive should be stopped, that we dont need to reach that destination.

TLDR; if we didnt have EPA emissions and CAFE we would have

this

and this

rather than

this

and this

In reply to Apexcarver:

Here here! I could not imagine a world with this many cars and no emissions technology. At some cruise-ins I feel like my eyes are going to burn right out of my head. I do not envy those stuck in traffic behind me in my old muscle car.

bigdaddylee82 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I'm sure that Alfa in your avatar has freshest pine scented air coming out its tail pipe. I can't really write a better response that doesn't sound even more floundery, or inflammatory. CARB is not the answer for the WHOLE COUNTY, the blanked adoption of one state's standards for the whole nation is, just like I said earlier, asinine.

Because I have an old car that pollutes, I'm ok with pollution? I don't get that logic.

So the "Coal Roller" is mad at the old International Loadstar and the amount of crap it's blowing into his lungs, I'm (supposed to be?) mad at the Coal Roller cuz my older 6.0 Denali is cleaner than his Diesel, the guy in back of me in his 2011 Crown Vic, is pissed at my Yukon, the woman in the 2014 Mazda is mad at the Vic driver but getting an ugly stare from the guy in the Prius who is being scolded by the Leaf owner who is being berated by the guy on the bicycle who is pissing off the guy in flip-flops walking to the store (to buy bottled water and carrying it home in a plastic bag so he can drink it while he uses his leaf-blower).

We all pollute to an extent. Some more than others. And just because some guy in a Prius (for example) feels good about his "clean vehicle" purchase, it doesn't mean he's smart enough to get rid of his riding lawn mower and 2-Stroke weed whacker.

maschinenbau wrote: In reply to Apexcarver: Here here! I could not imagine a world with this many cars and no emissions technology. At some cruise-ins I feel like my eyes are going to burn right out of my head. I do not envy those stuck in traffic behind me in my old muscle car.

I could imagine it. It would be like something between a particularly smoggy Chinese city and Blade Runner...everywhere.

I would love to produce a mediocre product that has he rabid following that VWs have.

Electrical circuits set the car on fire? Just trying to keep me warm. Car stopped running in the middle of nowhere? We don't get enough exercise anyway. Can't pass an emission test that everyone else has to? berkeley the EPA I don't trust air I can't see.

If any other company regularly churned out the crap that VW does they would rightly be called on it but somehow VW gets a pass no matter how ridiculous the fault.

In reply to Wall-e:

Mustangs, and (ironically) F series diesels. I love those totally irrational buyers.

Wall-e wrote: I would love to produce a mediocre product that has he rabid following that VWs have....

Search Google for "Harley Davidson"

(There quality is up, but the rabid following and premium prices are still going very strong)

What does this mean for the future of diesels in America? It seems they finally started kicking off with all the tdi and blutec stunning around.

I hope this isn't a dumb question but I haven't been following the diesel scandal much. This is worldwide right? I keep hearing epa thinking it's just America but then seeing the Germans raided vw had me thinking.

Out of all the bike makers there's one that gets away with having people put emotion first. I can understand it somewhat in that case because for most people a bike is a toy. My mother in law had five VWs in the 17 years I've known her and they were all well acquainted with both the dealer's service dept and many of the area tow trucks even though none of them stayed with her past 50,000 miles. At the peak of GM's woes you could expect the car to run for the life of the loan.

chiodos wrote: What does this mean for the future of diesels in America? It seems they finally started kicking off with all the tdi and blutec stunning around. I hope this isn't a dumb question but I haven't been following the diesel scandal much. This is worldwide right? I keep hearing epa thinking it's just America but then seeing the Germans raided vw had me thinking.

It's not the end of diesel- it's more a matter how much you want to pay.

As for what is going on around the world- they are reacting to what is happening here. I'm really not sure why VW mentioned that every diesel was cheating- but they did. The EPA only has jurisdiction here in the US, only superseded by the states who have chosen to follow CARB.

I do very much think the look of what cars sell in the EU will change a lot. And quickly, now.

CARB gave VW till Nov 20th to announce a solution...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/09/us-volkswagen-emissions-california-idUSKCN0S327G20151009

Wall-e wrote: I would love to produce a mediocre product that has he rabid following that VWs have. Electrical circuits set the car on fire? Just trying to keep me warm. Car stopped running in the middle of nowhere? We don't get enough exercise anyway. Can't pass an emission test that everyone else has to? berkeley the EPA I don't trust air I can't see.

That'd be like an electronics company with products that sometimes catch fire when charging the battery, or brick when updates are pushed through, and if the antenna has poor range it is "user error".

iCan't think of any that are like that, though