VW may not be Exxon but...

Knurled wrote:

wbjones wrote:

alfadriver wrote: As for your tuned ECU- I would bet that VW will not even notice it- they will just flash on the fix, and let you be on your way. If that is just the solution.

hence the reason for saving the OEM tune

Doesn't matter. For the years affected, the computer keeps a permanent record of all reflashes and who did them/where the flash came from. They will know that it had an aftermarket tune and was reflashed back to stock a few miles before coming to the dealership.

Honestly with 11 million cars to recall, I am guessing the techs doing the work are going to take zero time to investigate what tune was installed when and just flash the new factory tune and get he car out the door ASAP. IIRC factory recall work usually does not pay as well as regular repairs.

Oh, no doubt. But, IMO, saving the factory tune and reflashing it to stock before taking it in would be rather pointless. That is like slowing down after you see a patrol officer running LIDAR. At that point you're just admitting that you did something wrong

It's my understanding that the circumvention is something a little more involved than a simple reflash would handle. Going by GM-speak (since GM computers are the only OE ones I've played with), they will probably have to change the computer's OS either as a way to eliminate the circumvention, or as a condition of the fix specifically so that nobody COULD put the old programming back in, either by accident or deliberately. An old tune would not work on a new OS.

This assumes that the circumvention is done in software and not hardware. I've heard that it's a hardware hack, which I could 30% believe and 70% attribute to journalists writing beyond their skill level.

This situation, BTW, is why I laugh at any "spec" series where anything goes but cars must not make more than a certain amount of power or torque on a dyno. So you build a badass engine, then pay someone (or do it yourself, if you're a good hacker) to write code for your computer that runs on the "dyno legal" map with way too much fuel, timing pulled back, whatever suits the engine. But if you, say, turn on the ignition, go WOT three times in five seconds, then apply the brake before engaging the starter, you IDDQD that sucker. Anybody who doesn't know the cheat won't have access to the high power map.

Edit: Actually, I can think of a way to do it with a GM ECM with relative ease. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a pedal sequence. Cigarette lighters, for instance, can be thought of as switches. Instead of feeding it power, feed it a computer input. Push in the lighter, you ground the circuit...

In reply to Type Q:

Ok, to be a little more specific, I'm only familiar with the laws in the US- which only covers ~500,000 cars. The rest are around the world- with something like 4M cars in Germany.

I do know EU countries have odd modification rules. But other than the odd nature, I know nothing else.

In reply to Knurled:

The real struggle there is not blowing the competition away. Gotta find a driver that sucks just enough. Lol

alfadriver wrote: ...making a large group of really angry environmentalists happy?

Alfadriver, you just divided by zero. Such things are impossible.

DWNSHFT wrote:

alfadriver wrote: ...making a large group of really angry environmentalists happy?

Alfadriver, you just divided by zero. Such things are impossible.

In some remote part of the world, an environmentalist smiled, and then brain blew up.

In reply to Knurled:

It's being done. It's a problem. There was a fairly high profile situation in NASA a year or so ago where a driver was DQ'd on video evidence of him walking away from cars in the next higher HP class (and everyone in his class)
The guys in charge are aware of it but there isn't a good solution yet.

In reply to mazdeuce:

Sounds like somebody got greedy with the level of tune. Let's face it, in a spec series you really only need a bit more power, not a lot more.

re. the SM plunge cut debacle at the SCCA runoffs last yr …

they were chasing 1 - 2 hp

mazdeuce wrote: The guys in charge are aware of it but there isn't a good solution yet.

Sure there is. Square edged restrictor a set distance in front of the throttle body.

"Walking away from the competition" is how the infamous TTE restrictor cheat was discovered. And soon after it was discovered, a lot of other rally teams changed their restrictors too Key to cheatin' is to not get caught!

Knurled wrote: This situation, BTW, is why I laugh at any "spec" series where anything goes but cars must not make more than a certain amount of power or torque on a dyno. So you build a badass engine, then pay someone (or do it yourself, if you're a good hacker) to write code for your computer that runs on the "dyno legal" map with way too much fuel, timing pulled back, whatever suits the engine. But if you, say, turn on the ignition, go WOT three times in five seconds, then apply the brake before engaging the starter, you IDDQD that sucker. Anybody who doesn't know the cheat won't have access to the high power map. Edit: Actually, I can think of a way to do it with a GM ECM with relative ease. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a pedal sequence. Cigarette lighters, for instance, can be thought of as switches. Instead of feeding it power, feed it a computer input. Push in the lighter, you ground the circuit...

APR does this with there aftermarket tunes on audi's/VW's, you can change between up to 4 tunes by simply using the cruise control stalk

^I remember hearing of an Australian racer with a boosted car who would always pull down his sun visor on Bathurst's back straight, even if it was cloudy out...

the tune available for my Sonic is turned on or off by the cruise control on/off

Like most things, it's looking like the biggest reason VW went to so much trouble to do all of this was to save a little money on each car. Reports say that adding urea injection to the cars from the factory would've cost about $335 per car.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/

That's not chump change when you add up the total number of vehicles affected, but they're losing several times that amount now because of their decision.

it's always been "we don't have time/money to do it right, but we'll always have time/money to redo it later" …. or at least that's how it was where I worked

wbjones wrote: it's always been "we don't have time/money to do it right, but we'll always have time/money to redo it later" …. or at least that's how it was where I worked

But I wonder how much engineering effort it took to figure out a reliable way to cheat.

While the parts were free- someone had to write the code, and then someone else had to calibrate it.

I see a lot of that, too- fix things with software.

Still, I expect that for most companies- things that deal with government regulations and/or passenger safety gets special notes and requirements.

I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop and find out that it is not a Volkswagen-only thing.

Very strange that this could happen in a modern company. Even in a very small (but regulated) engineering firm like mine, it would be very hard to get anything out the door that did not pass muster. The person who thought of the idea did not code it and could not have directly tasked the coder to do the work. Coders do not work in groups of one and code is very thoroughly tested for stability and function by people other than the coder. Results are documented.

So to pull this off, pretty much the entire company had to be involved. Question I have is if it is more pervasive than we see, and in fact the entire industry had to be involved?

NOHOME wrote: I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop and find out that it is not a Volkswagen-only thing.

I would suggest that the EU off cycle emissions is, indeed, an industry wide problem. Particularly with diesels. The question is who is at blame, and what to do. Seeing how the rules are progressing- they saw this quite a while ago, and have quietly been changing thing. This scandal has brought it to the front of the table.

But the cheating part- that I don't see as an industry wide problem. Penalties are too severe to take a chance- which blows many of us away that VW would do that.

Was VW dumb to so brazenly violate the EPA's regulations? Maybe they were dumb like a fox:

https://thestack.com/world/2015/09/30/volkswagen-clean-air-act-loophole/

In reply to GameboyRMH:

I would not say dumb. Crazy- crazy like a fox.

And I'm not so sure about that loophole. I know a few people who were threatened with jail time, which changed a lot of behaviors.

Still, VW is going to have to face the Germans first- it appears.

One more thing- this is two different things going on:

1) VW set the system up to detect the car was being tested, and runs a specific way. When not detecting the test, it runs better, but dirtier.

and

2) off cycle emissions. Which is an odd can of worms. But certainly the EU's questioning of that is valid, and likely industry wide. It's the nature of the cycle that is used. They are supposed to adopt a more realistic cycle in 2018, I think, but this should move that forward some. As much as people bash the FTP75, it's at least a recording of an actual car driving. And combined with the rest of the tests required here in the US- actual off cycle emissions end up being close to the tested stuff.

But those two are very different things to discuss, as I see it.

That just says there is no specific criminal penalties, so nobody goes to jail. Still an extensive framework for fines and the CEO and others have lost their jobs, so it's not like people are walking away Scott free.

STM317 wrote: Like most things, it's looking like the biggest reason VW went to so much trouble to do all of this was to save a little money on each car. Reports say that adding urea injection to the cars from the factory would've cost about $335 per car. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/ That's not chump change when you add up the total number of vehicles affected, but they're losing several times that amount now because of their decision.

Stop-sale orders, lost sales, recall design & implementation, massive bad publicity, enthusiast community feeling betrayed, regulatory penalties, class action and civil lawsuits not just in the USA but all over Europe. Compared to that, $335 per car sounds like a bargain.

alfadriver wrote: Still, VW is going to have to face the Germans first- it appears.

Meh, no government is going to give their own automotive megacorp darlings anything more than a slap on the wrist.