In reply to Knurled:
exactly, more fuel hotter burn, less NOx & PM but more COx. Less fuel reduced NOx & PM but more COx.
That is why the after treatment on modern diesels takes up more space and cost than the physical engines do.
Packaging is hard on these.
So what is the VW cheat actually trying to accomplish? Better fuel mileage, or reduced warranty claim costs from emissions components that wouldn't survive if being used without the cheat (catylast/DPF)? Or something else entirely?
HappyAndy wrote: So what is the VW cheat actually trying to accomplish? Better fuel mileage, or reduced warranty claim costs from emissions components that wouldn't survive if being used without the cheat (catylast/DPF)? Or something else entirely?
Id guess both of those factors will play a role in the path they choose to fix the issue, but the main reason they chose to implement the "cheat" in the first place was to get around using SCR urea injection hardware, which would have cost VW about $330 per car. The TDI engines were getting expensive, and they needed to cut costs where they could to stay under budget according to former engineers:
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/
STM317 wrote:HappyAndy wrote: So what is the VW cheat actually trying to accomplish? Better fuel mileage, or reduced warranty claim costs from emissions components that wouldn't survive if being used without the cheat (catylast/DPF)? Or something else entirely?Id guess both of those factors will play a role in the path they choose to fix the issue, but the main reason they chose to implement the "cheat" in the first place was to get around using SCR urea injection hardware, which would have cost VW about $330 per car. The TDI engines were getting expensive, and they needed to cut costs where they could to stay under budget according to former engineers: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/
And that part really irritates me- at a minimum, they sold cars that cost $150M less (in the US) than they likely would have, plus they probably charged an extra premium for the fuel mileage they got.
Basically, making money by cheating. They got a market advantage that others did not. The total worldwide gained is hard to calculate- but right now, the penalty in the US does appear to be greatly more than their extra profit.
Consider your competitors- what if you found out that they were intentionally breaking a law which resulted in them gaining market share and making more money compared to what you did. Would you be ok with that? (the whole environmental aspects are can be a different argument)
Its also pretty messed up that people received incentive money from .GOV to purchase these vehicles, who pays that back?
In reply to Storz:
VW. I'm sure that will factor into their penalties.
VW should change their name to "Smokey Yunick Motors" and we would all start applauding their ploy. 
Both Shelby and Ferrari cheated at the Homologation game, but we look back at these deeds as heroic events in automotive history; there were no penalties. Our politicians cheat as a matter of course there are no penalties. All economies are Ponzi schemes by definition there are no penalties. All lawyers bill 16 hours a day when they "only" work 12 hours there are no penalties. Real Estate agents DO NOT work for the seller there are no penalties. As Mr Robot said"Everybody Steals and cheats". Not finding the righteous indignation button for this one. Kinda sorry they got caught cause they had a good thing going. Give them a good hard slap on the wrist and let the world get back to something important like Trumps election campaign.
I see now that the V6 engines in Porsche and Audi are included in the scam.
In reply to NOHOME:
Careful, I got chastised for similar views in another thread.
Still loving our TDI, and bummed that this whole "scandal" likely killed any chance of a TDI Golf Sportwagen Alltrack. 
iceracer wrote: I see now that the V6 engines in Porsche and Audi are included in the scam.
These are engines that had urea injection systems. The fact that they still needed defeat devices to pass emissions tests is a big deal.
Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?
Quoted from yesterday's statement:
EPA: The software employs a "timer" that coincides with the low NOx temperature conditioning mode. At exactly one second after the completion of the initial phases of the FTP 75 Federal emissions test procedure (1,370 seconds, which is when the vehicle would normally be turned off), this software directs the vehicle to cease low NOx temperature conditioning mode. The "temperature conditioning" status bit switches to zero, and a second status bit indicates the activation of "transition to normal mode." In this "normal mode," the emission control system is immediately less effective. Compared to the low NOx temperature conditioning mode, the vehicle employs a different injection timing, exhaust gas recirculation rate, and common rail fuel pressure. This yields higher levels of NO x from the engine and reduced exhaust temperatures. In sum, as soon as the vehicle senses that it is not being tested, it uses "normal mode." In "normal mode," tailpipe emissions of NO x are up to 9 times the applicable NOx standard levels, depending on model type and type of drive cycle (e.g., city, highway).
The latest finding covers about 10,000 passenger cars already sold in the United States since the model year 2014. The violation notice also covers an unspecified number of 2016 vehicles. Cars found to have the software installed are the diesel versions of the VW Touareg, the Porsche Cayenne and the Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L and Q5.
nderwater wrote:iceracer wrote: I see now that the V6 engines in Porsche and Audi are included in the scam.These are engines that had urea injection systems. The fact that they *still* needed defeat devices to pass emissions tests is a big deal.
My thoughts exactly
Audi has a new 'clean diesel' project...
The locomotive features plug-in hybrid propulsion systems capable of running on electric power alone for two hours at a time, and can be plugged in to recharge during down-time.
It pollutes much less than current diesel-electric locomotives -- but only while stationary during emissions tests rimshot!
Flight Service wrote: Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?
Wall Street Journal has VW blaming EPA this morning for stifling competition. This ought to work out well.
Flight Service wrote: Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?
For cars, BMW and Mercedes have cars that meet the rules, and for trucks, all the OEM's have examples that meet the rules.
Why is VW the "gate" that means a technology is capable of being done?
Listening to Bob Lutz- he seems to think GM knows how to do it as well, it's a matter of cost/benefit. I know it's possible, too.
spitfirebill wrote:Flight Service wrote: Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?Wall Street Journal has VW blaming EPA this morning for stifling competition. This ought to work out well.
LOL. The rules don't BAN diesel. Just makes the rules equal to gas. So that we are all on equal footing.
Which means that when someone comes up with a gas direct injection engine that is turbocharged and starts challenging diesel fuel economy all at a fraction of the cost of diesel- that encourages competition. For that matter, there's money to be made by being able to meet the rules cheaper than the other guy. Lots of it.
NOHOME wrote: VW should change their name to "Smokey Yunick Motors" and we would all start applauding their ploy.
So you are saying polluting, as long as they are cheating, is ok? Yea, don't follow that at all. Seen what the US was like in the 70's, see what Europe is like now. Equating racing cheating to potentially shortening lives cheating is kind of an odd paring, if I may be so bold.
alfadriver wrote:Flight Service wrote: Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?For cars, BMW and Mercedes have cars that meet the rules, and for trucks, all the OEM's have examples that meet the rules. Why is VW the "gate" that means a technology is capable of being done? Listening to Bob Lutz- he seems to think GM knows how to do it as well, it's a matter of cost/benefit. I know it's possible, too.
GM is already doing it with the Cruze diesel, or at least trying. The problem is that they don't sell well because GM doesn't market them, and they cost a few grand more than the equivalent gas model. At this point though, it's probably a legitimate question to ask if small diesels will ever be able to recover from the negative image this melodrama has had on the entire segment.
With the advent of turbo GDI engines, I don't see any really compelling reason to chose a modern diesel powered car. The MPG gap between the diesels and turbo GDIs is getting narrower all the time, and the GDIs aren't saddled with DPFs, urea and other failure prone bits.
HappyAndy wrote: With the advent of turbo GDI engines, I don't see any really compelling reason to chose a modern diesel powered car. The MPG gap between the diesels and turbo GDIs is getting narrower all the time, and the GDIs aren't saddled with DPFs, urea and other failure prone bits.
Ironically, VW was one of the first large OEM's to used GTDI. They beat us by years. And sold it heavily on their LeMans cars.
STM317 wrote:alfadriver wrote:GM is already doing it with the Cruze diesel, or at least trying. The problem is that they don't sell well because GM doesn't market them, and they cost a few grand more than the equivalent gas model. At this point though, it's probably a legitimate question to ask if small diesels will ever be able to recover from the negative image this melodrama has had on the entire segment.Flight Service wrote: Is this the death of diesel in the US? If VW group can't get it done, who can?For cars, BMW and Mercedes have cars that meet the rules, and for trucks, all the OEM's have examples that meet the rules. Why is VW the "gate" that means a technology is capable of being done? Listening to Bob Lutz- he seems to think GM knows how to do it as well, it's a matter of cost/benefit. I know it's possible, too.
I'll keep posting that IMHO, small car diesels will go away. Not due to lack of ability- but due to cost. And not just here in the US, but in the EU. Especially when they figure out that the current NEDC test is resulting in really bad air quality. Gas engines are still getting better.
BMW and Mercedes can deal with keeping it.
Unless someone really creative comes up with a solution. Which is quite possible.
alfadriver wrote:NOHOME wrote: VW should change their name to "Smokey Yunick Motors" and we would all start applauding their ploy.So you are saying polluting, as long as they are cheating, is ok? Yea, don't follow that at all. Seen what the US was like in the 70's, see what Europe is like now. Equating racing cheating to potentially shortening lives cheating is kind of an odd paring, if I may be so bold.
No I am not saying that cheating is OK, merely stating that it is endemic and normally not penalized in our society. Cheating is pretty much the way the human race was designed to work. Cheating is how we got to be on the top of the food chain. Would be nice to think that it is not true, but also naive. As my mama taught me early on, you only get spanked if you get caught.
And yeah..I DO equate the picaresque antics of Carrol and Enzo with those of VW; all just selling some cars by bending the rules.
If you want to give someone a real hard time for "Cheating with emissions and putting the worlds health at risk so we can get rich" thing, call China and tell then they are busted. That is one huge elephant in the room that we all ignore because its inconvenient. China don't really give a berkeley.
Did you obey the speed limit on the way to work today?
In reply to NOHOME:
If China want to lower their population via air pollution, that is their option.
But the rules here in the US means we actually have pretty good air to breathe and water to drink. And we all, as an industry, have the same rules. If you want to celebrate cheaters, feel free. I'm not.
And unless you meant that Enzo cheated by putting in a cage that meant his drivers die, I can't equate racing cheating (just to win a prize) with air quality cheating.
Funny that you just accept cheating just because it's done. Others actually will get up and stand for their right to life quality issues.
In reply to NOHOME:
A huge reason that China looks like it does, is because they have emissions standards that pale in comparison with most of the civilized world. Showing a smoggy China only reinforces the point that emissions standards should probably be more strict in most places if we have any interest in preserving quality of life for our species and the rest of the planet as far as I'm concerned.
Any manufacturer can sell their engines/vehicles in a place, so long as they meet the local emissions laws. VW intentionally deceived governments and consumers in several countries across the world, and illegally sold their products. Their faulty TDI engines are probably much cleaner than a lot of other examples across the world, but the point is, that they intentionally misled their customers and regulators about their products, and illegally sold 11 million or so vehicles that are contributing more to the problem of pollution than they should be by law.
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