With a little digging, I came up with NOx reduction percentages and values here: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f99017.pdf . I'm not sure if they are the right ones.
I hope alfadriver can chime in or if his line of work prevents him from commenting.
bluebarchetta wrote: Everybody keeps talking about "40x the standard!", but nobody is reporting what the standard is. I'd like to know what the standards for diesel pollution are now vs., say, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and 30 years ago. Then I'd know whether to judge VW as an evil corporation putting profits above public health, or a rational actor trying to make and sell cars in spite of a ridiculously stringent standard imposed by people for whom environmentalism is a religion.
Diesel regulation was basically non-existent 30 years ago. They didn't really start to get serious about diesel emissions until the early 2000s. Here's a link to the standards from 06 to now: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm
We are currently in Tier 2, Bin 5 regulations, which state NOx values shouldn't exceed .05 g/mile. So, 40 times that limit would be 2 g/mile. That's still more than 3 times the allowable NOx of a vehicle from a Pre 06 vehicle
Not only a lot of Audi A3 ads this weekend, but a lot of A3 e-tron plug-in advertisements this weekend in a format that pokes fun at those to go alternative fuel for the sake of portraying themselves as green.
Not only a deception, but also a coverup.
This gets more and more interesting.
So at what point do I start buying VW stocks?
If no one cares about people dying from recalls, people def wont care about emissions.
Coldsnap wrote: So at what point do I start buying VW stocks? If no one cares about people dying from recalls, people def wont care about emissions.
Seriously, everything you said there is a (are) great point(s)!
Hitler Reacts To The VW-EPA Scandal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA
Kombiashi maru
84FSP wrote: ...doesn't it sound like a great time to get a smokin' deal on a new GTD?
I see what you did there
Sooo.... I'm guessing that with the fall of their value by some 20%.... that VW is not going to be buying in to F1???
Question that may have been guessed at in the previous 5 pages but I didn't read (sorry):
What is the "solution" here for existing cars?
All of these cars at this point realistically cannot pass a smog inspection or will not be allowed to. Which means they cannot be registered (depending on where you live). Will they:
I suspect, either way, there were be a bunch of them floating around without a re-flash. The VW diesel world is going to be pretty strange for a while.
What about the new cars on the lot? Are they even allowed to sell them? I am guessing the actual emissions are out of compliance of course (they are, right?)
All i know is that i want one of the motors to put in a Cherokee.
Solution is unknown. Doubt they will get an exemption. They tried a reflash but it wasn't good enough. Can't sell new cars on the lot and VW has also suspended used sales. Some sort of hardware and software solution will likely be implemented to existing cars. There will be lawyers.
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-is-now-the-target-of-a-criminal-investigatio-1732130214
I thought this was coming. That engineer who came up with it might have a harder time getting a job than you all thought.
Making mistakes as an engineer is fine. When malice is provable, that engineer is going to have a bad time.
I didn't know that VW is now the biggest carmaker in the world.
In reply to aircooled:
They are voluntarily NOT selling them, and according to this article, VW has decided to stop sales of used cars with the affected engines through its dealer network as well. Not sure how that works, especially with trade-ins and the like. Are they just going to sit on lots? The 2016 also hasn't been certified by the EPA so they can't sell them either, even though they use a different engine with urea.
I'm betting TDI owners are going to be most upset about what this does to their normally stellar resale values.
Christ I was just about to buy a TDI too real close, I still like the TDI w/e. But DAMN did I dodge a bullet. Don't really care about emissions, but resale might suffer like crazy.
How did anyone not see something like this coming. Considering the unrealistic goal of putting together no emissions, good economy, lots of power and low cost all in one package that has been mandated by government and consumers.
bastomatic wrote: ....I'm betting TDI owners are going to be most upset about what this does to their normally stellar resale values.
Also of note, at least in CA. If the car cannot pass smog it is almost impossible to sell since they cannot register it and it's the sellers responsibility to ensure it passes smog.
aircooled wrote:bastomatic wrote: ....I'm betting TDI owners are going to be most upset about what this does to their normally stellar resale values.Also of note, at least in CA. If the car cannot pass smog it is almost impossible to sell since they cannot register it and it's the sellers responsibility to ensure it passes smog.
This is totally unrelated to state-level post production emissions testing.
That said, the whole point of VW's game is that the cars will pass a scantool test. But on the flip side, I'd wager that a majority of older cars that pass a scantool test would fail a roller test, by any manufacturer.
oldeskewltoy wrote: Sooo.... I'm guessing that with the fall of their value by some 20%.... that VW is not going to be buying in to F1???
keep in mind that the money realized by VW for the sale of stock is already in their bank account … the fall in value, while it might hurt when it comes to borrowing power and other ways, falls directly on their investors, not them
Knurled said: That said, the whole point of VW's game is that the cars will pass a scantool test.
Not just a scan tool test, but a government test cell test.
I'm pretty sure that it was Cadillac that was busted for nearly the exact same thing about a decade ago. The car knew the difference between being on rollers and actually on the road, and had different settings for each. IIRC, they got a slap on the wrist and a recall notice to owners.
In reply to ebonyandivory:
I wonder if one of the other manufacturers ratted them out? Surely they tried to reverse engineer one, and found that things weren't adding up. OEM's also have the hardware to do full tailpipe tests on the road in 100% real world conditions.
What I am curious to know is if this goes beyond the EGR system "shutoff" which you have been able to do in the software since the earliest TDI days not just 09+. People on TDI club have been turning off the EGR systems because often times the EGR which is not present in europe models etc can cause reliability issues and carbon buildup/failures.
Aspen wrote: Solution is unknown. Doubt they will get an exemption. They tried a reflash but it wasn't good enough. Can't sell new cars on the lot and VW has also suspended used sales. Some sort of hardware and software solution will likely be implemented to existing cars. There will be lawyers.
my guess is that they'll just start shipping them all off to third-world countries where diesel is the standard fuel and people don't care about emissions and/or there are no regulations. E.g. most of Africa, central America, etc.
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