VW may not be Exxon but...

Storz wrote: I own one of the dirty diesels from VW - 2012 Jetta TDI. I bought it over the Cruze because I didn't have to use AdBlue. will be a real bummer if I am not left with a car that requires it or has a software update that is so restrictive it cuts the power and MPG. Be interesting to see how this all plays out, I am honestly hoping for a buy back at this point.

So you would be the person to ask:

"Would you be happy if VW just paid a huge "Pollution fine"? Moving forward the EPA would leave you and the rest of the owners present and future out of this whole mess? I don't see how this would be any less morally correct than the gas guzzler tax that has already established a precedent that entitles rich people to pollute more than poor people.

Or would you still somehow feel cheated?

Storz wrote: I own one of the dirty diesels from VW - 2012 Jetta TDI. I bought it over the Cruze because I didn't have to use AdBlue. will be a real bummer if I am not left with a car that requires it or has a software update that is so restrictive it cuts the power and MPG. Be interesting to see how this all plays out, I am honestly hoping for a buy back at this point.

I am in the same place. I have a 2011 Jetta TDI. I bought the car solely for the purpose of cheap commuting. If the "fix" lowers my gas mileage I will be pissed. It is going to be really interesting to see how this all plays out.

In reply to mazdeuce:

From my understanding, the cars actually do pass a tailpipe test IF they know they're being tested. The cheat program determines that it is being tested by a variety of inputs - steering wheel position, throttle, etc etc - and then implements the full EPA-level scrubbing of NOx. When testing is done, the program allows the car to go back to emitting NOx levels well above the allowable limit.

There is obviously a reason the full emission controls can't run all the time - mpg impact, power impact, or reliability impact on the car. I'm betting it's all three, but especially durability of emissions equipment.

A big "tell" is that VW already quietly recalled these cars last year to fix the issue, with the EPA's knowledge. That recall didn't solve the problem, and VW apparently doesn't have a real fix in the works.

For VW folks wanting to keep their performance, IF a forced reflash becomes a reality, you might want to buy a used ECU to use only for dealership visits... There could be a small market fro something like that.

bastomatic wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: From my understanding, the cars actually do pass a tailpipe test IF they know they're being tested. The cheat program determines that it is being tested by a variety of inputs - steering wheel position, throttle, etc etc - and then implements the full EPA-level scrubbing of NOx. When testing is done, the program allows the car to go back to emitting NOx levels well above the allowable limit.

Right, so they're not really passing, they're cheating. If you disable the cheat they would fail. If you make the cheat permanent so they're clean then......that's really the billion dollar question for VW right now, isn't it? I'm sure VW knows the answer, but the fact they haven't said is pretty damning.

The Guardian has a good article tallying up how much pollution was released by cheaty VWs. The excess pollution could easily lead to more deaths than GM's flimsy ignition switches and Toyota's glitchy E-throttles combined:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/22/vw-scandal-caused-nearly-1m-tonnes-of-extra-pollution-analysis-shows

State level tests are never as stringent as the OEM tests. They tolerances are generally so loose that it is more of an anti tampering or an anti lack of maintenance measure.

Even so, I don't see the situation affecting peoples' ability to register their cars in any way. VW may be forced to do a mandatory recall, which is an "all cars everywhere", but you'll get to keep your car.

Most of you guys have no idea how "bent" the post-production testing system is. A lot of times, catalyst inefficiency failures are solved by the latest flash, which just looks less hard at the cat. Wham, it's fixed! I've seen cars with completely empty cats happily pass the catalyst monitors...

NOHOME wrote:

Storz wrote: I own one of the dirty diesels from VW - 2012 Jetta TDI. I bought it over the Cruze because I didn't have to use AdBlue. will be a real bummer if I am not left with a car that requires it or has a software update that is so restrictive it cuts the power and MPG. Be interesting to see how this all plays out, I am honestly hoping for a buy back at this point.

So you would be the person to ask: "Would you be happy if VW just paid a huge "Pollution fine"? Moving forward the EPA would leave you and the rest of the owners present and future out of this whole mess? I don't see how this would be any less morally correct than the gas guzzler tax that has already established a precedent that entitles rich people to pollute more than poor people. Or would you still somehow feel cheated?

I bought the car to be an economical daily driver with the mindset that burning less fuel on my daily slog back and forth to work is a good thing for both the planet and my wallet. So yeah, I feel a little cheated. I also don't want a "fix" that kills the performance or fuel economy because that's NOT the car I bought, nor is adding a Urea system the car I bought. In fact I passed up a GM discount on a Cruze diesel specifically because I didn't want to deal with Urea Injection

My biggest fear is that whatever the fix turns out to be, its going to cost me more money in the form of worse gas mileage or having to add Urea.

My best hope is a buy back.

F-350SD wrote:

NOHOME wrote: I don't see how this would be any less morally correct than the gas guzzler tax that has already established a precedent that entitles rich people to pollute more than poor people.

I'd like to point out that Camaros are subject to the gas guzzler tax, and they're not an expensive car. Don't let that get in the way of a "rich guys loophole" argument though, as it's more fun to just throw statements out there without knowing the facts.

The cost of the car is irrelevant. The Gas Guzzler Tax is by definition a Luxury Tax. Rich people buy luxury items like Muscle Cars. The Camaro would be a good example. So would the Mustang.

My point is that if you want to pay for it with your new vehicle, you can get around pouring filth out the tailpipe in any quantity you want. In any vehicle you want and at any price-point you want. You just have to pay the tax. If you are willing to squander funds on such frivolities, then you are, in my world, a well-healed individual. Congratulations, that is not a bad thing.

Storz wrote: I bought the car to be an economical daily driver with the mindset that burning less fuel on my daily slog back and forth to work is a good thing for both the planet and my wallet. So yeah, I feel a little cheated. I also don't want a "fix" that kills the performance or fuel economy because that's NOT the car I bought, nor is adding a Urea system the car I bought.

To be fair, the car you bought also turned out not to be the car you bought, so now you have to decide which car you actually want: The diesel-sipper that mega-pollutes, a low-maintenance subpar diesel, or a modern diesel with urea injection. The amazing diesel sipper with low pollution was a fiction so that's not an option. I do hope you get the option of a buyback though.

NOHOME wrote:

F-350SD wrote:

NOHOME wrote: I don't see how this would be any less morally correct than the gas guzzler tax that has already established a precedent that entitles rich people to pollute more than poor people.

I'd like to point out that Camaros are subject to the gas guzzler tax, and they're not an expensive car. Don't let that get in the way of a "rich guys loophole" argument though, as it's more fun to just throw statements out there without knowing the facts.

The cost of the car is irrelevant. The Gas Guzzler Tax is by definition a Luxury Tax. Rich people buy luxury items like Muscle Cars. The Camaro would be a good example. So would the Mustang.

You bar for rich must be different than mine. Practically anyone that can afford a new car can get a Camaro or Mustang. I think all new cars are luxury items.

Hmmmmm to sell or not to sell the 03 Wagon TDI....probably wait out the hysteria and see what happens.

I keep thinking of Wrath of Khan. When Bones tells Kirk's son how Kirk passed the Kobayashi Maru.
Kirk: I changed the parameters of the test.
Son: Huh?
Bones: He cheated.

What if the reflash that makes the emmissions compliant lowers the mpg a bit, but also introduces more and more frequent maintenance? Say the EGR valve requires replacement every 5k miles or something like that. I still say if I had one of the affected cars and liked it I would be tempted to keep it and just never ever let a VW dealer touch it for any reason.

if it does away with the reason you would by a VW to start with … i.e. the fuel milage and the giggly torque … if the re-flash does away with much of that, then the only way I'd want one would be at a HUGE discount … you still have the (perceived) down side of buying a VW … (all the cel's)

Willy Nilly wrote: I would be tempted to keep it and just never ever let a VW dealer touch it for any reason.

That is generally good practice for any TDI. No dealer has EVER touched my car in 12 years. Even the recalls I did myself on my own time/$ rather than take it to the dealer. "Free" wasn't worth the risk...

Granted, I'd like to believe the dealer techs are better now since they sell so many more TDI's now than when I bought my car, but in 2003 I was reading about too many horror stories of dealers berking up cars. I bought my car under the assumption it basically had no warranty. Of course, with the amount of miles I put on a car, I blew through the warranty period in under two years anyway.

BMW just been caught. Who's next?

Buy Back Time

BMW reference.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-24/bmw-drops-on-report-that-x3-diesel-s-emission-exceeded-eu-limit

Sine_Qua_Non wrote: BMW just been caught. Who's next?

Now you are starting to think like me. I was just waiting to see who else was going to get outed. Maybe it is just a German thing? Be a heck of a blow to the nations brand image.

re. BMW … I'm betting that this isn't going to be the last … the tune for the test is going to be there …. not much way around that … especially for a performance brand …

Time to buy some Ethanol stock....I am thinking that diesel cars will become even more rare. I wonder if Mercedes will fail next.

it'll be interesting to see if the other brands actually had an egregious cheater code like VW had which outright acted as a "defeat device" vs. just an "inconsistency" whereas the dyno/test mode is optimized, but still a part of the normal engine programming. I wouldn't be suprised to see a lot of inconsistencies in real world testing, in the same way a lot of cars don't meet the magical EPA fuel numbers, but that's not necessarily the same thing as intentionally devising a "run only when tested" cheater setup which bypasses normal maps and clamps down emissions for that sole purpose only.

I own an '11 TDI.

I am dissapointed in VW.

I'm secretly hoping for a buyback.

xflowgolf wrote: *snip I own an '11 TDI. I am dissapointed in VW. I'm secretly hoping for a buyback.

Same here.

It'd be funny if we Americans Dodge, GM and Ford were the only Diesels to be on the up-and-up?

Rudolph Diesel was a Kraut after all! Probably be a Nazi if he hadn't offed himself.