Walk with me for a moment

I have always had a Jones for a Morgan. Seeing Richard Hammond's several times on TGUK and only added fuel to the fire. Then there is reality. I will never be able to purchase one new. But I have been thinking about this project for quite some time and wanted the opinion of you all about how to start.

I have been thinking of two basic paths

1. Get some sort of older sports car (MG or FC convertible Rx7 other???) and basically start hacking off things until I get the basic shape and them put body panels/fenders wind screen etc back on to get what I want. The problem with this is you always end up with hacked up car. And in my opinion the angle of the windshield never works correctly. Modern cars all have windscreens that are much more laid back than the look I am trying to achieve.

or

1. Start with a tube frame (hopefully some ones unfinished project like a 7 or something and build my way back up to what I want. Locust 7 type car would be a great starting point. I have even thought of seeing what Factory Five had that would possibly work as a starting point. Add Ford V8 power brakes etc with a Morgan type body and that could be a lot of fun.

Since I have never undertaken this kind of a project I wanted to here from those that have and get your opinions.

You could build an Arkley on an old Midget, but I think a Locost is the way to go.

I have (had) the same infatuation with Morgans since college. I finally got over it by naming my daughter Morgan. She has cost a whole lot more than the car.

There are several Moganesk like bodies being done for Locost cars. You're not going down a totally unexplored path. One or maybe two of the remaining parts suppliers even has a body kit kinda like this. Kinetic is playing with something Morganesk.

The easiest way would be to strip a miata of the body - take it all the way down to the "spine" - and put something else on. At that point, you don't have to do the stock miata windshield. I LOVE this miata rat rod (although I would not have ratted it, I would have cleaned the rust off and slapped a coat of paint on it.)

Now, if you're determined to build the chassis and not just the body, that's a bigger challenge....especially since you're not building a lotus seven clone. Any time you deviate from a standard locost, you are pretty much on your own. Yes, locostusa has a "non-traditional builds" section, but I haven't seen anything there that struck me as particularly useful. The more you deviate from their norms, the less useful advice you'll get. (Basically, a long rambling way of saying, "Stay here, the GRM forums are helpful"

I started my datsun replica by mirroring the construction technique of a locost. For example, here's an early version of my chassis, pre-suspension and pre-transmission tunnel.

If I was doing it over, I'd probably ditch the locost-style construction and build more in the manner of a model t/model a speedster; i.e. ladder style frame (I'd use something like 3" x 4" rectangular tube with 1/4" sidewall for the chassis. Build the body afterwards and set it on top.

(Rootlieb Model T Speedster kit:)

IMHO I would find an old Morgan and restore it for two reasons. One it will be hard to replicate the feel of a Morgan. Two the restored Morgan will be worth something when you are done and a replica isn't.

If you try it, you may want to check out these links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLS7p0fGhiM (the good stuff starts at 5:57)
http://izismile.com/2010/08/06/how_morgan_cars_are_made_out_of_wood_24_pics.html

I think those are required viewing for anybody wanting to fabricate a morgan from scratch.

I've said this before about shifter karts and certain gliders: When I'm sitting in a vehicle, I like to have at least 2 layers of material between my ass and the ground, and I want at least 1 of those to be metal.

How much you want to spend? I know of a 3 wheel Morgan for sale locally. I think the price was mid 20's.

JoeyM wrote: The easiest way would be to strip a miata of the body - take it all the way down to the "spine" - and put something else on. At that point, you don't have to do the stock miata windshield. I LOVE this miata rat rod (although I would not have ratted it, I would have cleaned the rust off and slapped a coat of paint on it.) Now, if you're determined to build the chassis and not just the body, that's a bigger challenge....especially since you're not building a lotus seven clone. Any time you deviate from a standard locost, you are pretty much on your own. Yes, locostusa has a "non-traditional builds" section, but I haven't seen anything there that struck me as particularly useful. The more you deviate from their norms, the less useful advice you'll get. (Basically, a long rambling way of saying, "Stay here, the GRM forums are helpful" I started my datsun replica by mirroring the construction technique of a locost. For example, here's an early version of my chassis, pre-suspension and pre-transmission tunnel. If I was doing it over, I'd probably ditch the locost-style construction and build more in the manner of a model t/model a speedster; i.e. ladder style frame (I'd use something like 3" x 4" rectangular tube with 1/4" sidewall for the chassis. Build the body afterwards and set it on top. /blockquote> .

I have similar feelings to you. The main thing that I don't like about using the Miata spine is that you're stuck with an engine that's relatively far forward. A more classic look (and better weight distribution) requires that it be shifted backward, at which point one generally junks the old spine arangement.

Morgans aren't that terribly expensive. I agree with the sentiment that from an investment standpoint, you're better off fixing one up. But restoration is a creative tyrany. if you want to try things out, it's better to really do so and start from scratch than to hack up a classic. Wood can be a remarkable structural material, but it's not the lightest, and water is your enemy. High quality clear grain wood is expensive, and the end grain of plywood is like a sponge. I've built watercraft of plywood succesfully sealing the wood with epoxy and fiberglass cloth, but those were simple paddle and eind powered affairs. I'd be more reluctant to try with a performance car. A model A replica wouldn't be so daunting

I disagree about the "non-traditional builds" section of Locost USA not being useful. I've gleaned a lot of useful stuff from there - particularly in the build logs.

Also, do you mean this morgan or this morgan?

The locost-derived chassis would be better for the three wheeler because - like the lotus seven - it lacks doors.

The problem with adapting the locost chassis to anything with doors is that a HUGE amount of the strength in the chassis comes from having solid sides without doors. When you take away the upper tube (where the top of the door would be) the structure gets pretty floppy. In my chassis photo above, you'll see that I doubled the lower tubes, and put one inch spacers between them, to try and stiffen it up. After that, I added 1/4" plate on the outer surface...still flexed too much in the door area. (That problem exists anywhere you have a single tube.....After that photo, I had to add a lot of tube in the wheel arches to stiffen them up, too.)

In the end, it wasn't until I built the transmission tunnel that this problem was reduced to semi-acceptable levels.

If you want a morgan, go buy a Morgan live your dram. Figure 30k should buy you a pretty good one.

Borrow the money on a balloon note, pay the $100/month interest and sell the car off during year 4 to make the final payment. You can do the same with your line of credit.

I can assure you that with an equivalent $100/month cashflow, you won,t build as nice a project as you would by buying a nice running car.

JoeyM wrote: Also, do you mean this morgan or this morgan?

Or this Morgan

NOHOME wrote: I can assure you that with an equivalent $100/month cashflow, you won,t build as nice a project as you would by buying a nice running car.

Probably true, but maybe he has the itch to build something from scratch. (i.e., that's his "dream", and the morgan is simply representative of the styling he likes.) Restoring a car might make more sense, but it isn't going to fulfill that urge to create.

JoeyM wrote: Also, do you mean this morgan

That one. The problem with restoring is it takes some of my freedom away. I Like the lines of the morgan. The bigger than normal fenders etc. But those headlights. I would want to change things.. . .. A Lot of changes to the headlights. Smooth out the fender completely removing the bulge for the headlights and putting something much smaller and lower on the fenders hack even conceal them. Or abandon the whole flush mounting all together and revert back to semi pod mounted headlights of the 1974 Morgan 4/4.

There must be FF frame that would lend its self to this style car that you could then just take the driveline and running gear from a Mustang GT

I guess the answer is mix and match the best aesthetics from #1 and #3. Use a more common driveline. Turbo4 cylinder orf find one of the really small displacement aluminum LSx motors.

Anything's doable....I'd build a ladder frame out of heavy tube and then a light weight body to go on top. (i.e. imitate the street rod guys.) Just make the body what you want instead of yet another thirty two ford replica.

Take a side and front photo of the car, use photoshop and some cross multiplication to get dimensions, then start welding.

dean1484 wrote: I have always had a Jones for a Morgan. Seeing Richard Hammond's several times on TGUK and only added fuel to the fire. Then there is reality. I will never be able to purchase one new. I have been thinking of two basic paths Since I have never undertaken this kind of a project I wanted to here from those that have and get your opinions.

I hear three messages delivered all at once:

1-I want a Morgan.

2-I want a NEW Morgan

3-I want to build my own version of a Mrgan-'type-sportscar.

AND

A) I don't have money B) I don't have fab skills/experience, tools.

The first thing is to decide what you really want from options 1-2 or 3. Second is to decide what kind of steady cash flow can be set towards the project.

FWIW, I know a guy in Concord CA who has a finished Morgan replica with a GM 2.8L V6 that's been gathering dust. The car is in good condition and he's a fine builder (Has done several kit cars and several scratch-builts). The car's not for sale, but he's been making noises about thinning his fleet and would probably entertain offers. There's no Morgan replica that I know of that US-based, so the kit probably originated in the UK. PM me if seriously interested.

NOHOME wrote: I hear three messages delivered all at once: 1-I want a Morgan.

Yes and no. I like many of the styling ques and the performance but I would like to change a lot as well.

NOHOME wrote: 2-I want a NEW Morgan

Nope That is unless some one said "Here take my new morgan" I would also have started a "learn me Morgan's" Thread and lastly what is the fun in just purchasing a new car? Been there done that. I will tell you it is a very boring experience. The journey of creating a car / building a car is where the fun is. For me anyway. In fact I get board with cars once they are "complete" The whole car A.D.D thing.

NOHOME wrote: 3-I want to build my own version of a Mrgan-'type-sports car.

Ding Ding Ding We have a winner. Yes!!!

NOHOME wrote: A) I don't have money Lets just say I would be in Divorce court the following morning if I came home with a new one. Things like college for the kids, keeping enough cash around to make payroll just keep getting in the way. LOL

NOHOME wrote: B) I don't have fab skills/experience, tools. Have the fab skills and have a big pile of tools from my race car shop days. (a great way to take a big pile of money and make it smaller I might add). And one of the great side benefits to any project is I get to purchase more tools.

NOHOME wrote: The first thing is to decide what you really want from options 1-2 or 3. Second is to decide what kind of steady cash flow can be set towards the project.

Well it is obvious that #3 is the choice but I think you are to wrapped up with the money aspect of it. The whole point of this was do get the opinion of others about the build strategy options. What are others experiences? Starting with another car and tearing it down to a point where you can then build it back up in a "like ness". The problem I always have with this is I am sure many of you remember the MGA kits that were based on VW's. It was just so wrong in so may ways. I just cringe every time I see one. At the end of the day you have just ruined a perfectly good VW. This is not where I want to end up. However this option gets you a running driving car very quickly. In fact since you theoretically start with a running driving car you can sort the mechanicals first making sure it is up to the level you want and then tare into it.

Or, as some have suggested, start with a frame and build up from there. However, if you go this rout there is potentially a pile of engineering that has to be done. And why do it? Why reinvent the wheel or literally the suspension when you can take off the shelf stuff with the engineering already complete and focus on building not so much on design and engineering of these parts.

This is why I am leaning towards some middle ground. Find a frame (again I am thinking factory Five but I am sure there are others) set up for SBF or LSX drive line. In an ideal world it would also be set up with and all the suspension pick up points with the geometric figured out (meaning all you have to do is source the parts or whole doner car).

In my book the advantages of this kind of build are huge. First off it speeds up the project and greatly facilitates completion of the project. I can and have engineered and fabricated suspension parts from scratch as well as many other parts during my 25-30 years playing in the world of racing and I have come to realise that all I am doing is re-doing what has been done by countless others many times. It is a wast of time to do this kind of thing when off the shelf parts are there for the taking. There aer those few rail times that there was no other option but 99% of the time it ah been done before.

How I think I want to approach this is. Base the project on a already in production kit car that uses a C5 Z06 drive line and suspension and then add a Morgan-type body. You get the looks with the proper performance to back it up.

Does this make sense?

Most old British iron works well without a windshield. My personal favorite is the TR4:

or the TR6:

Either will give you the feeling that you are looking for, and with a gutted interior and sticky tires, they are blast!

dean1484 wrote: I have always had a Jones for a Morgan. .... ....Since I have never undertaken this kind of a project I wanted to here from those that have and get your opinions....

Sorry, my post was based on the two sentences above.

I am with you in the fact that I would rather build than drive/own the result. My own poison is Brit cars.

I also agree that you should avoid enginering as much as posible. Not that I doubt your skills, just that it is expensive, time consuming and requires validation and/or iteration.

Find a car with a track and wheelbase you can live with, that you know handles well or at least has good geometry, and setthe geometry hardpoints as fixed variables in your design. Can't go wrong with the Miata for this as far as I am concerned. Bit wide for a Morgan. Pretty much identical wheelbase as a MGB.

Read both the Kimini and Svetlana build books for a lot of insight and advice on how to proceed.

Sign up for the Metalmeet forum and look under the scratch built car section. Some inspirng work on that site.

Also read Keith's book, and remember this:

"Estimate how long and how much, then triple it. You won't be far wrong." - Jack French, writing in the 750 Club's magazine. (Quoted in Staniforth's Race and Rally Car Sourcebook)

That's applicable to almost any scratch build, but especially so when you don't have a ready made set of plans to follow. You may find yourself in cart-before-horse situations where you realize that X would be easier if you hadn't done Y before. I know I've found that to be true for myself.